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Shogun

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Post 24 Jul 2017, 20:30

New players

This game can be considered as a recreation, as well as a hobby. Recreation same as a TV or a game of football, to spend time. When I talk about those who view this game as a hobby, I mean those who want to raise their level of play to some heights, who really want to work on the game. So these same people, I think, lose this hobby interest and go into hobby, when they cannot see the interest in this game, which cannot really create their beauty, which would connect them with the game. But after all, beauty cannot be truly appreciated if one does not know its boundaries, so they stop at what they know.
If you compare this with real life, then it is enough to recall your preferences, for example, to food. If you have been vegetarian all the time, then you will never understand the preference of a meat-eater.
So those players who played a little at 60 pt do not see a big difference between 90 and 60, as they do not see a big difference between speeds. They just need to play “just for fun” and nothing more. They cannot see the difference because of little experience and knowledge about the game. That's why this community does not grow and cannot grow. This game has no fans, only an elite society of fanatics. New players are always kicked because of lags (you still are possible to change the server), by the general agreement of the lobby, your own whim, and by invitation/”we need a spot for another guy”. The whim of the host depends on the feeling of wanting at all (usually players become kicked for no reason). The decision of the lobby often depends on the situation of the lobby (the map, the players' fullness) and also the player himself, usually where people more or less know how to play. From the player requires knowledge of the game. In the same place, where the player's skills are higher, just knowing the game skills is not enough - you need to know the password (recently it was impossible to get without the knowledge of English or friends. I was very lucky to learn about the xbow-lobby, as I played before with average players without a password), but for large nerds it needs a participation in teamspeak. I once fulfilled all the requirements that in my opinion would have been sufficient to watch the game (if everyone had already taken part), which Mr.Fu hosted. Nevertheless, I was kicked at his whim from that lobby, where there was enough place for the spectating (and I would be glad to hear his opinion on this matter). I agree that the noobs in the normal lobby have to become kicked (kicking the spectators when there are no other players for the game 4 versus 4 is already absurd), because there is no interest in that some person ruin the game. They should start up first learn, look for information and so on then to play in decent lobby. In the closed lobby there is no noobs practically and there will not be, because, for example some people even have no idea what control of builders means, so they can't enter. How do they find out about this? Without knowledge of the password it is impossible. This is minus of the closed lobby. It would seem that everything is simply stated and mine could correspond to the general concept of collecting players for the game. But everything breaks the injustice of the host's whims, as well as the elitism of closed lobbies, which do not allow new players in general. What can you even say that 1 and 1.5 speed is better when a minority is playing it? What kind of beauty are we talking about? Your opinion will be shared by the same minority only. Therefore, in my opinion that closed lobbies should only consider the invited, to prevent misunderstanding. And that there have to be at least some kind of policy with respect to new players, rather than selecting them on their own.
I do not want to insult this post; I'm talking about the situation in general and how things are going with the newcomers, and I argue that there is no sense in closed lobbies except for those who do not need an explanation (we need a spot for another guy). Trolls somehow appear in closed lobbies to prove their belonging to the nickname, it is necessary to make identification through a profile on this forum or something like that. If you need a special level of play, I think the best decision then will be the introduction of game categories - for news, for average, for pros or something like that.
KaM community is held today precisely on the reputation of the player, which is extracted by luck and injustice.
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thunder

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Post 25 Jul 2017, 20:20

Re: New players

Strange words. A point of views it could be true. But personaly disagree with in points.

The new players has many chance to learn the game fastly. They have more chance than the older community had before.
Videos/shoutcasts, replays, commentaries, Topics about strategies and gamestyles...etc... Still there are some topics which offer different challanges xbow/scout/wine/EE...etc... still I haven't seen too much 'new players' to try to beat them or pass them or just simply join to the forum. This is not a real life bloody game. It is really for fun. good to play with fiends with girlfriends with sons with family etc... and better than playing blue whale or green elephant...
Many times private lobbies used only for chat or talking. :wink: Should not arguing if a 'new player' get kick from lobby with kind words.(*** *** **** *** ** ****) Mainly if the player was gently asked before for to leave with more gently words(*** *** **** *** ** ****) Simply go back to learn and try to perform on that level and search always better players. Many 1v1 games are going out there. Beat many of them and be famous...They will ask the new players gently 'May I hunt down you in 1v1?' :mrgreen: Of course not true, but the point is just do not give up.
This game does not have ranking system, so the new players needs to fight for their trusts to be fearful.


The best what community member/ older player can do is sharing opinions/experience and always try to be fair and gently with the new community members and players. Then the small community always will have recurrent players for every game mode.



My opinion the game ould need a new release very soon with seige weapons and with less long and less fast PT games. Disable over 90minutes and disable gamespeed over 2 times speed.

(-no real reason to play it.90minutes with 2-3times speed almost a 60minutes game. In this case more players would have to choose 90minutes games and then there would be a larger group on 90minutes...)
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The Dark Lord

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Post 25 Jul 2017, 21:12

Re: New players

I agree that claiming that pt60/x1 is the best is quite arrogant, acknowledging that most players play with higher peace time and speed settings. This, however, does not at all disqualify the idea of 'closed lobbies'. In fact, to have a proper game, it is mandatory to have those. Random people will join, moan about the settings, leave, or stay and leave later during the game, maybe cause the game to lag... and then I haven't even said a word about making balanced teams yet.
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Shogun

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Post 26 Jul 2017, 00:03

Re: New players

Thunder wrote:The new players has many chance to learn the game fastly...

We can imagine how is some random guy with bad knowledge of english, that knows nothing about passwords to 60 pt lobbies, that knows nothing about team speak will try to grow up. May be he will see some videos... And what would we have? We will have i think another locked group that using their own knowledge but with same level as our lobbies but after a time that first players have reached when KaM have appeared.. I think China community is good example. Or PUA clan. The new players will learn the game more fastly if our games will be publicly available.
May be mine first paragraph in first post is strange, but i was trying to explain about why KaM Remake is having so much noobs or peoples without some kind of knowledge. If you look at the same Chinese, we would see that their levels are from average to professionals. Of course they do not fill the lobbies now by newcomers, i think, because of lack of advertising. But everyone is good, for some of them KaM Remake is not only recreation. How they have reached it? I think because of sociability.
Thunder wrote:...and with less long and less fast PT games. Disable over 90minutes and disable gamespeed over 2 times speed.

Really it is not needs. Faster games in my opinion is good for train skills to ideal control of everything. And less long games trims the possibilities of game modes in general. I think 60 pt would be the best preference, but already for those guys who knows about 60 peacetime firsthand.
The Dark Lord wrote:in fact, to have a proper game, it is mandatory to have those

Of course it is in fact! But if to introduce the system of ranks, system of login-password in new release (in our game release i have idea to check the players on the forum in whose accounts they were told about their records(rank) on a special map for this (Another EE challenge?)), we would be possible to have fair games, where your rank is truly сorresponds to the specified categories of the lobbies. So then some random guy with some random skill level will be possible to play everywhere he want without any special reputation. But i think no one will be agree with so big changes...
Last edited by Ben on 27 Jul 2017, 03:43, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Improved BBcode
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Stocky

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Post 26 Jul 2017, 13:36

Re: New players

In my opinion the best possible scenario is to implement "multiplayer tutorial" into the remake itself so new players can get important info quickly. 90pt or 2.5 speed really is bs. You will never be able to understand game mechanics on these settings and more importantly you will get use to that and slower speed is gonna feel boring then.. - This is actually the biggest issue that these settings are considered normal so unless it will be removed we can't do anything major about that.

(btw. I learned almost everything important for 60 PT games from shoutcasts on yt. I am not sure people really want to learn because they already have all the tools they need as Thunder said and ye English is quite essential like for everything but this is nothing new, right?)

Btw. No offence to anyone but PUA or CN are on the weaker spectrum of ts players from what I've seen. Maybe they really need to join ts. :mrgreen:
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Shogun

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Post 26 Jul 2017, 17:32

Re: New players

Laufy wrote:In my opinion the best possible scenario is to implement "multiplayer tutorial" into the remake itself so new players can get important info quickly

Nice idea, but are you really believe in new release? But if someone will make full tutorial, we would send it to every KaM groups that we know. But the problem still in differences of interests that lies between noobs and skilled. That is what i am trying to inform.
Laufy wrote:90pt or 2.5 speed really is bs

If you played on this settings like a pro, you would understand mine answer on "...and with less long and less fast PT games. Disable over 90minutes and disable gamespeed over 2 times speed." and by words"I think 60 pt would be the best preference, but already for those guys who knows about 60 peacetime firsthand." i mean that if skilled players would make fashion on 60 pt by public lobbies, we dont need then to disable "not pro" settings.
Laufy wrote:(btw. I learned almost everything important for 60 PT games from shoutcasts on yt. I am not sure people really want to learn because they already have all the tools they need as Thunder said and ye English is quite essential like for everything but this is nothing new, right?)

I was thinking about self-education and tried to explain why we still have noobs or adherents of "no-standart 60 pt settings" in first post while we still have too much tools for education...
http://imgur.com/a/hO2av about CN are you sure? He is one of the best. Don't say what you do not know. CN are always from average to pro's then our European members that are playing from noobs to pro's. And about PUA it was an example meaning of which you do not understand.
"Maybe they really need to join ts." for what? They have their own community, even, i think, more fair.
Last edited by Ben on 27 Jul 2017, 03:40, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Improved BBcode
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Stocky

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Post 26 Jul 2017, 18:50

Re: New players

I am sure Lewin is still active just working on the Knight Province so we can contact him when there is some concept of this. I can imagine version for 60 but with introduction of let's say 75 and especially 90PT all old players will jump back to playing 90 again.

I have played it before, actually many years and it is very different game. Everything is just bigger and you make many mistakes because of such a speed you can't coordinate well. What I was trying to say is that you don't learn how to micro with 2.0+ speed. You must understand that players want primarily play, not to sacrifice many games just to learn few people without knowing they even stay..

That is decent game and like I said from what I have seen it was not this good. Good game but nothing spectacular nevertheless. I agree we have hard time to balance games sometimes. :D I saw PUA just few times on 60PT and I didn't pay much attention to their performace but it was casual I guess, dont know why they dont want to play with more people.. With CN there is also time and server issue.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 26 Jul 2017, 19:09

Re: New players

Shogun wrote:Of course it is in fact! But if to introduce the system of ranks, system of login-password in new release (in our game release i have idea to check the players on the forum in whose accounts they were told about their records(rank) on a special map for this (Another EE challenge?)), we would be possible to have fair games, where your rank is truly сorresponds to the specified categories of the lobbies. So then some random guy with some random skill level will be possible to play everywhere he want without any special reputation. But i think no one will be agree with so big changes...

As I have stressed before, introduction of 'ranks' is a really bad idea, because it increases competitiveness. As a result, it will be hard to find any games: if you are not good enough, you will be kicked, and if you are too good, you will be kicked as well.

The idea of an in-game multiplayer tutorial is quite nice, and yes, I still believe in a new release - just wait until TNL 16 is finished! :P
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Shogun

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Post 26 Jul 2017, 21:22

Re: New players

The Dark Lord wrote:As I have stressed before, introduction of 'ranks' is a really bad idea, because it increases competitiveness. As a result, it will be hard to find any games: if you are not good enough, you will be kicked, and if you are too good, you will be kicked as well.

Just imagine that 60 pt would be in fashion (because everyone his level by challenging on 60 pt) after mine ideas and because of in-game tutorial, everyone know his rank, his rating, there would be a rule that guarantee that everyone will play only in those lobbies (for 60 pt only) which suits his skill. No kicks, balanced games and no trolls! If one troll will come, his nick will always be banned, until somehow he will change his behavior or attitude that towards to him. If someone gonna to play in mixed lobby (by rank) he just make another lobby with a description that there will play players with different levels. Transition to another level is going by challenges or may be record...
Good example of it - Warcraft 3, where peoples for team matches are collecting by their ranks.
But situation, that we have now, is going by reputation only. No invitation to closed lobbies (closed lobbies are going not going by purpose, because password can be obtained by everyone but not by inviting), many trolls and always imbalanced games even in closed lobbies and in lobbies at all. Reputation is not stable, and everyone is not stable too.
Laufy wrote:What I was trying to say is that you don't learn how to micro with 2.0+ speed.

No, you will learn something but not in so big amount as 60 pt and speed 1.5< . Mostly in 1.5+ speed you will increase your performance level of knowledge. That is what i meant about pro-game on 90 pt, 2.5 speed. And micro is growing on 2+ speed too.
Laufy wrote:That is decent game and like I said from what I have seen it was not this good. Good game but nothing spectacular nevertheless. I agree we have hard time to balance games sometimes. :D I saw PUA just few times on 60PT and I didn't pay much attention to their performace but it was casual I guess, dont know why they dont want to play with more people.. With CN there is also time and server issue.

About PUA and CN clans i was talking about what we will have if our lobbies will not be public. I wasn't talking about PUA and CN game level. PUA have some skills on 90 pt but if they will grow up on 60 pt without any knowledge that old players have reached some ages ago, they will make their own knowledge after some ages... And some PUA members don't think that 90 pt with increased speed is waste of time. They are having their own fashion. They are'not growing up because of different interests between us. May be CN is bad example but i had imagination about how PUA will become as good as CN without our help.
Last edited by Ben on 27 Jul 2017, 03:43, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Improved BBcode
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Ben

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Post 27 Jul 2017, 03:45

Re: New players

Shogun, please use the "quote" tag when you are quoting people. Do not use the color tag, it's much harder to read, thanks.

- Ben
#thunderposting #greentornado
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Ben

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Post 27 Jul 2017, 03:51

Re: New players

I personally would love to have some sort of identification in-game. However, I doubt it will ever happen. The extent of what will ever be implemented in the Remake is a simple ID seeded from the end user's IP. That comes with obvious drawbacks, the most obvious being the easy way to get around it with some basic tech knowledge.

If you're having serious issues with people pretending to be someone else joining locked lobbies, you need a better password and a better method for communication. I think Skype, Teamspeak, or similar software is almost a necessity for KaM due to the inability to message and PM in game.
#thunderposting #greentornado
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sado1

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Post 27 Jul 2017, 15:12

Re: New players

A few thoughts.

Registering players - great idea, but the devs never wanted to do this (because someone could steal all the passwords, and they want nothing to do with that), and since Krom and Lewin are not actively developing the game anymore, this is even less possible to happen now.

As for TeamSpeak group isolation. I think it is both unfortunate and to be expected, at the same time. We're a group of friends that simply wants to play together, and on top of that, it is really bad to play with someone that neither doesn't know how to fight, nor is on TeamSpeak. It's not even about the army spam most of the time - communication in fight is very important. You don't have to speak if you don't want to, but at least be there and listen. We can't teach someone how to fight if all we can do is beaconing and typing in chat. KaM fights are way too fast-paced in the critical moments (when being caught or shot at, for example). There's nothing worse than seeing how your newbie teammate makes a stupid decision, that you can spot ahead of time, and you are unable to tell him to save his army, so you just stand there and watch him die... that's why when I am host, I usually resort to kicking out non-TS people first when I have to make a spot for someone from there.

A multiplayer tutorial - nice idea, but nobody wanted to make one so far. It'd be a pretty complicated piece of map, we probably need a good player with excellent dynamic scripting skills and really good knowledge of the game. Sadly, the only person that would be remotely fit for doing this would be myself - I don't see a problem with my scripting skills, but as for the "good player" part, I know the theory, but I'm not the best person to teach anyone how to play efficiently. If someone gives me a good, generic text tutorial that can be applied to many maps and locations (of course as much as it is possible), I may try to convert it to a map, maybe with some voice-overs. I'd love to make a fighting tutorial, too (a task I feel better prepared for). But this is still very theoretical - at the moment I'm unsure whether we will ever get a new Remake version again, since the development have stopped. (I'm not sure on current progress from Rey and other new developers?)

Another idea I had would be to add a public chat in the server list. Allows basic communication, and lets you see how many people lurk before joining a lobby. Should be made abuse-resistant, however. (typical chat restrictions are needed, like one message per X seconds for spam protection, ability to disable the chat, etc.)

Generally, it would be really nice if it was possible to let way more people spectate an 8P game, but a major redesign would be needed, if it's at all possible; ideally, I'd want every single game to be joinable by anyone, at any time (as long as spectators are allowed). This way, new players would be able to watch a pro game without being worried about being kicked or replaced by a friend of the host. As stated above, however, chances for this to be implemented are slim.
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Shogun

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Post 27 Jul 2017, 17:38

Re: New players

sado1 wrote:A few thoughts.

Registering players - great idea, but the devs never wanted to do this (because someone could steal all the passwords, and they want nothing to do with that), and since Krom and Lewin are not actively developing the game anymore, this is even less possible to happen now.

As for TeamSpeak group isolation. I think it is both unfortunate and to be expected, at the same time. We're a group of friends that simply wants to play together, and on top of that, it is really bad to play with someone that neither doesn't know how to fight, nor is on TeamSpeak. It's not even about the army spam most of the time - communication in fight is very important. You don't have to speak if you don't want to, but at least be there and listen. We can't teach someone how to fight if all we can do is beaconing and typing in chat. KaM fights are way too fast-paced in the critical moments (when being caught or shot at, for example). There's nothing worse than seeing how your newbie teammate makes a stupid decision, that you can spot ahead of time, and you are unable to tell him to save his army, so you just stand there and watch him die... that's why when I am host, I usually resort to kicking out non-TS people first when I have to make a spot for someone from there.

Then everything depends on the new release of game itself? I hope that Knights Province solve the problem of players profiles, because your arguments about the TeamSpeak are like soap opera. Either we kick players for a reason, or by invitation in closed lobbies in general. That is for version KaM Remake r6720.
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Tiank

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Post 28 Jul 2017, 08:21

Re: New players

Quick thought about accounts and passwords. I think we live in times, where everyone needs to be aware of how important is to have good online security, with having different passwords in different sites as one of security measures. If someone's using the same password everywhere - well, it's his problem, cause he didn't pay attention to such an important thing. So that argument (about many users mostly using same passwords) is invalid for me.
Without honour, victory is hollow.
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Shogun

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Post 29 Jul 2017, 02:43

Re: New players

Sado, The Dark Lord and who else a supporter of TS... What do you say about "Ts players" replay that i have posted here https://vk.com/topic-7734603_36097679 ?
Some guys was lagging (by fps and by ping, omg), some of them was unstable, Stocky have left the game on 40 min (i think he ragequit after he built the bad city), teams was imbalanced (unfair then), to replace Stocky there came some guy who calls himself as Razor that was lagging also (i had doubts about he wasn't a troll). That is how we was playing.
And the most interesting - there was no suggestion to use the TS instead of the B marker. About it you guys was talking, when you brought pluses of the closed lobbies and the TS groups?

I think, that Sado was right in one thing - you are group of friends, because rudeness holds you all together. I'll describe the situation. About random guy that proofing that he is Razor i had doubts that he wasn't a troll. I was unfortunately host there and wanted the proof that he wasn't a troll. I thought he would tell me about it himself in TeamSpeak, but did i hear from him? Something like kurwa. And from Bara i heard "co za debil". Yes, Bara, even debil can understand your words. That was proof from group of friends for me. And this case is not limited.

After this i think you should understand that such lobbies are not different from a random ones.
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