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Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

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Krom

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Post 28 Jun 2013, 10:20

Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

For a long time I have been interested in early days following KaM release back in 1998 and 2001.

How did the community lived back then, why there were no modding and editors?
Who were the OpenKaM founders?
Did anyone talked with The Barbarian about the game editing?
Who started the ServiceRelease patches?
Which community site/forum appeared first?
Did KaM developers took part in community live?

There are hundreds more questions! Share your knowledge!
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dicsoupcan

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Post 28 Jun 2013, 10:25

Re: Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

sadly my awnsers would be i don't know, i don't know, i don't know, i don't know and i don't know :(

All i do know that i loved to play the game and i wondered why it never got a sequal so why not add this question into the mix. ( this remake project enlightened me a lot about the past of the original kam though)
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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Krom

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Post 28 Jun 2013, 10:35

Re: Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

@Dicsoupcan: That's a good question. TSK was released back in 1998 and it took almost 3 years before TPR was released in 2001. What was happening in those 3 years? Why there was so little change to the game in so big timespan?
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Lewin

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Post 28 Jun 2013, 10:46

Re: Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

I joined the community well after that time, but here's some info I picked up along the way:
- The Knight (aka TK, admin of the German fansite) and The Barbarian (TB) started the SR patches (originally called "Patch Pack" I believe)
- TK and TB had contact with the KaM developers/publishers, they got SR2 put on the official KaM website
- The German fansite/forum is certainly one of the oldest, it might even be the oldest. Litude (previously known as Real_Hotdog) started the English fansite/forum (the predecessor to this one) in around 2006 I believe with some help from TK.
- TB and TK had knowledge of how to mod the game, e.g. how to decode mission .dat and .map files, as well as graphics and fonts. However, they very strictly did not share any of this information with the community, I assume they believed it could be used for the wrong purposes (I strongly disagree with this attitude, openness and modability gets you much further and allows the community to improve and contribute to the game). The Barbarian made tools to decode some of the game files, however he was still very much against letting anybody else modify the game, that's why his graphics reader only reads graphics files (.rx) and cannot save them (even though he had the ability to change graphics because he did so in the SRs). TB/TK also had a text-based mission editor, you can see changes made by them in mission files from SR2 (and some comments).
- Qage wanted to make a map editor, so TB sent him a description of the map format with strict instructions NOT to share it with anyone else. Qage disobeyed this request and published the document online. Krom later used this document to make his map editor (and later the Remake).
- The Barbarian left the community permanently, I think it was soon after his map document got leaked.
- TK requested Krom to not allow editing of original KaM .map files in his map editor, although this limitation was later removed.
- TK made the same request to me about my mission editor to not allow editing of the original campaigns/missions, which I refused as I saw no harm in letting people edit the original game.
- Litude started making SR3 much later on

Please correct me if I'm wrong on anything, most of these stories are 2nd or 3rd hand. I covered a larger period than you asked for, but hopefully it helps fill in some gaps in people's knowledge.

If you want a history of the development of TPR, read this:
http://www.knightsandmerchants.net/inde ... nt-history
And TSK: (I suggest you read this one first as the story follows on)
http://www.knightsandmerchants.net/inde ... nt-history
There is an enormous amount of information there, Litude did a really good job gathering and verifying the story.
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T*AnTi-V!RuZz

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Post 28 Jun 2013, 10:47

Re: Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

Topic moved on request
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T*AnTi-V!RuZz

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Post 28 Jun 2013, 10:49

Re: Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

- The German fansite/forum is certainly one of the oldest, it might even be the oldest. Litude (previously known as Real_Hotdog) started the English fansite/forum (the predecessor to this one) in around 2006 I believe with some help from TK.
Nope.

January 2005, and it looked like this:
Image

Litude made that one himself.

In March 2005 (few months later) The Knight helped him build a new one. Can't find the screenshot though.
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Lewin

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Post 28 Jun 2013, 10:56

Re: Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

Ah you're right, I should have checked my dates. I still have a complete backup of the old fansite, here's a screenshot of the oldest page of the News Archive:
Image
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Krom

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Post 28 Jun 2013, 11:05

Re: Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

My 2c:

- I have heard that TheKnight pursued TheBarbarian to keep his findings closed-source and don't release incomplete/beta versions of his tools and that in the end they have parted because of that.
- TheKnight heavily influenced me back in early days, pursuing into keeping original KaM maps uneditable in KaM Editor. I had much respect for TK and his site was the biggest one, I also had similar issue in WR scene with mods passwords, so it took a lot of time and forum discussions before I removed that limitation.
- I have decoded map format on my own, TBs document arrived later and covered the missing pieces (like map borders lighting bytes)
- StarGazer was making a KaM remake too. His remake however featured original artwork and was very simplistic looking. He did not finished it.
- I have hoped to team up with JBSnorro, but Harold was first. I forgot the details, but one did the games logic (JBSnorro?) and second the graphics (Harold?). I was genuinely upset they had a team of two before we teamed up with Lewin.
- We have talked with Harold and he was surprised to see me sharing details about file formats, he thought we were competitors and I would not help him. I even tought him (or was it JBSnorro?) how to do basic OpenGL render for TKE.
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Siegfried

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Post 28 Jun 2013, 11:09

Re: Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

I am very interested in these things, too. I missed the early times <2001 completely due to a lack of internet connection.

I know that the german community has been around since the very early times. And the probably biggest contribution that I can make is to say, that 'The Knight' is probably one of the biggest source of knowledge out there.

I don't know if he started knightsandmerchants.de, but he kept running it from 2001 (when I joined and - sadly - left again soon) until today. But I can offer to look through the archives of knightsandmerchants.de and translate the found information into english. This will take some time.

There were no modding attempts earlier because there were no information about the file formats of the remake. So it was more or less a big mystery, some attempts were made by randomly changing stuff and see what happens. In 2002, some decodings of the map format were made from two unknown fans.
As a consequence, some highly unstable map editors were coded. The first editor was done by Jan und was very user-unfriendly. But it was a start. Only after the release of the Graphics Reader, Qages started the first almost usable map editor. I've lost track then, but I think the next editor was already from Lewin. Or was Krom first?

IIRC it was really TheBarbarian who started the big thing. He developed the decoding tool and revealed most of the file information. The Knight was in contact with him and offered help at some points. So the Graphis Reader appeared and revealed so many information (like those old graphics that were found in the game).
So the existance of all modifications and therefore also the remake owe its existence to those two people.
The first news about this came up in 2004, but the work was already at an advanced state then, so I guess The Barbarian has started earlier. He disappeared 3 years later. I think The Knight is the only person who knows the details.

Another interesting character is StarGazer. I have to look up the details, but he was in contact with the developers. As was another person that was still active in 2002, but I forgot almost everything about it.
I just know, that the developers were aware of the The Knights' fanpage and visited them. So there was contact. I think there was even an interview.

*edit:
TK once wrote about his motive to keep the information close. He said he did not want to allow easy cheating.
I think, the beginning development of tools after the leak of needed information cannot prove him wrong more :)
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Shadaoe

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Post 28 Jun 2013, 14:18

Re: Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

Really interesting topic, I wasn't around before recently in the KaM community because I thought there was no community at first :p I didn't know any friend or family member who ever heard of KaM from another source than me so I couldn't think there was a community, but when I searched I found this website and wasn't surprised to find that Litude was behind that.
So basically, I have no idea of what happened in the early days of the KaM community, the only thing I can say is that openness of knowledge about file formats and such is what made the community stay that long and that the Remake made the whole thing really active !
I'll continue reading this topic to learn intersting informations, thanks for that !
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Omigoshe

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Post 28 Jun 2013, 17:25

Re: Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

Early days kam for omigoshe, 6-7 y/o only playing mission 2 ;)
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Litude

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Post 01 Jul 2013, 20:11

Re: Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

How did the community lived back then, why there were no modding and editors?
I don't know exactly why there were no modding tools made for the game back in the day, but it might have been because the community was quite scattered which made coordinated efforts difficult and probably also made it less interesting for people to pursue modding of the game.

While not directly asked, I though I'd mention that the most active English community was probably over at GameTalk in post 2001. Well it wasn't as much of a community as it was random people coming by and dropping in for some quick questions. :P Sadly the website is long gone by now. :(
Who were the OpenKaM founders?
Regarding OpenKam, which version exactly are you talking about? I know there were a bunch of different OpenKam projects, but I don't think any of them really got off the ground to be honest.
Did anyone talked with The Barbarian about the game editing?
I have some old email conversations with The Barbarian on an old email account in regards to editing. It's mostly about the general morality of publishing modding information since as we know he wasn't very keen on sharing his findings. IIRC he contacted me after I published some modding information; need I say he wasn't in the best of mood. ;)
Who started the ServiceRelease patches?
The service releases patches originally when The Knight discovered that you could fix the faulty TSK campaign included in TPR by copying over the mission files from TSK. IIRC he released this as some form of first Service Release.
Later on he was contacted by The Barbarian and then they got more fixes done once The Barbarian started decoding the files so that they could actually fix the broken files.
Which community site/forum appeared first?
The Knight's website is probably one of the first websites, it goes way back. I can't say for sure whether it was the first one but it has always been a very influential website. It was hosted under some other website back in the day though, can't remember the URL it had back then though.
I remember The Knight mentioning that there was some big unofficial German Knights and Merchants forum that was closed down sometime in the early 00's that was used ways more than the official forum. Never found that forum myself though.
Did KaM developers took part in community live?
They did take some part in the community, on the old TopWare forum they used to make a few posts every now and then addressing people regarding upcoming patches and the mission CD etc. These posts might still be in the German TopWare Knights and Merchants forum (they were a few years ago at least).
EDIT: Just dug up the forums and seems the original posts are still there, you can see an example of a thread in which Peter posted here.
I have heard that TheKnight pursued TheBarbarian to keep his findings closed-source and don't release incomplete/beta versions of his tools and that in the end they have parted because of that.
I don't think that is correct. From what I can recall, they pretty much mutually agreed that the game would be better off if the file formats were never made public and that the tools they would release would use their own formats and then when you're ready export into the game format. He was definitely opposed to sharing the decoding formats of the game, not once did he mention he was opposed to this simply because The Knight thought it would be best for the game.
January 2005, and it looked like this:
Right, that layout was very short-lived. I think the new layout was put out in February. The first layout was up for about a month or so.
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ChrisEggII

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Post 16 Jul 2013, 16:40

Re: Early days of KaM. Archaeology poll topic

I'm not here for a long time, so I can't say much... But I remember times, when the biggest news was a new map made by Alanbach, where I had to build a tower in special place... That was first polish fan-made map.

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