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8000+ after first tries

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thunder

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Post 07 Jan 2018, 17:03

8000+ after first tries

Hello,

Tried out this Beta version and I was surprised. Personally I would say nice steps forward. The graphs, the editor, the extended multiplayer lobby the faster net and could make the list longer with the goods. The new woodcutter is something what is a kind of reborn thing. It is something what is changing the game mechanism a little bit. Maybe makes a bit easier as it is. It 's a kind of workaround of the "vinetrick" what is not so known widely. I like it as mapmaker because it clears the very tiny difference between the locations and opens new possibilities on smaller places. As sado already posted it can be very useful on kind of Rebound locations where the trees are on awkward position.

There are lots of small changes, some of them looks out totally unnecessary (OK,of course those are useful and gives lot to the game :wink: ), but I would wish the resturante be controllable too! The red triangle for the food wares. For example I don't want that the bread be delivered into my resturante, just because want to order it to another one or want to trade it...I know many times written already, but this woodcutter pointer motivate to ask after it again. I really fustrated because the citizens useed to eat until will be full 100% and few times they are eating 3 wares too and sometimes they not though about the other citizens. It is a bit annoying. But if could controll the foodmanagement then then a citizen could not eat more than one type of food so other villigers could eat and should not leave the resturante in hungry state. Small thing but a good commander has to be share the resources equally. And of course has to think on the food production too. Of course this way the units would not be fully feeded but could save time to produce food or set up food production few minutes later. But my problem is that sometimes really eat three type of food to be fully feeded.
Screenshot 2018-01-07 16-37-48.jpg


Small note. This flag is maybe small or hardly visible. Please, could you make it larger or with different background?
Screenshot 2018-01-07 16-36-07.jpg


Here apologize to me, but maybe will be very raw!

I'm a little bit wondered an disappointed with the TH. This is a ridiculous change on the current way.
After those many years and tons of discussions and dynamic scripts it will be implemented on this way. Really? There are so many questions and problems. And it is not about the programing it is rather about the Balance. I know TH is opening new possibilities, but on this ways it is nonsense. Sorry but I have to say its totally kill what most of the time defended by players, developers here on the forum, 'the classical game'. (just an example the market was nerfed until it is even not useful in the late game either after it was very useful in the early games and destroyed the classical game.) This TH, Multi Townhall(!) is totally will kill what you know as normal or regular game.
Screenshot 2018-01-07 16-45-29.jpg


The main problem is the price of the units and the goldchest price in the Market. Yes, have to think on it too. Now on a small location without any huge effort an average player can produce more than 520goldchest under 60minutes. If calculating well with the new barbarian price(6gc) it means 87 barbarians, or 260Rebels. I'm not sure I want to play games where this type of prices are available. Is there any control or break on this??
Even 4 goldchest for a completed vagabond! Please check the trade : Goldchest to Horse price! And after add the Goldchest to Axe price and the Recruit price

I accept that the TH be in the game in the multiplayer too, but only as an option. I know now lots of players are playing similar setting with dynamic scripts, but personally I don't want to see TH on this way in my games. Please do me a favour and make the TH as an option because on this way the game really will be based on one type of ware. :wink:
Screenshot 2018-01-07 16-33-34.jpg

(I know it is not programming stuff, but just noticed that the map list is quite outdated.)

Thank you for all the effort what invest to programming and developing the game more and more! Keep it up! :wink:

PS: sorry for the long post again!
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Ben

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Post 07 Jan 2018, 17:36

Re: 8000+ after first tries

No option for town hall. We don't need 100 sliders and options like some EA game. It should either be in the game by default, or not. If you want it disabled, use a script.
#thunderposting #greentornado
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thunder

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Post 07 Jan 2018, 17:56

Re: 8000+ after first tries

Funny... I feel the same as at the build order change. If there is something new, then you have to script back to the original one. This thinking method is horrible to me. Working twice and generating more.

So each map what you want to play normally will need a script which disable the TH. Not easier to add a button once as on the picture? Same for the siege weapons too.
Too much scripted s...ts out there to can follow what build order is actually available and many times even the map's descriptions are not evident either. So actually this TH enable disable button really would be helpful. Look on it and will know immediately this lobby will have or not TH.
I don't need another 1GB maps in my pc just because the TH enable disable script.
Sorry.
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Ben

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Post 07 Jan 2018, 18:05

Re: 8000+ after first tries

If new features are added to the game, it should be enabled by default. If you want to go back to the old way, you need to mod it/download an old version. This is not a new concept, it's the same for all software.
#thunderposting #greentornado
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thunder

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Post 07 Jan 2018, 18:25

Re: 8000+ after first tries

Ben wrote:If new features are added to the game, it should be enabled by default. If you want to go back to the old way, you need to mod it/download an old version. This is not a new concept, it's the same for all software.

Well, If you are a developer, then you have power to add these options as I recommended and everybody would stay happy. Believe me that little check box would not hurt anybody and would save time for everybody.
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Ben

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Post 07 Jan 2018, 18:30

Re: 8000+ after first tries

Yes, one checkbox is fine. But I can't count on my fingers how many checkboxes have been proposed over the years. We have three sliders for PT already. We have a checkbox for spectators, checkbox to randomize teams, etc. While we are at it, maybe a checkbox to limit towers? A slider to determine how much food is restored when eating a sausage? Surely a few checkboxes won't hurt...right?

I think "Krom's bus" is appropriate here. If you cannot remember what I'm talking about, it's a basic analogy of how too many options can get out of hand, and make a simple design look ugly.
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thunder

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Post 07 Jan 2018, 18:36

Re: 8000+ after first tries

Ben wrote: While we are at it

Because Some buddies wanted faster games and because of this completely destroyed buildorders, speed and the lobby skin?
This one more check box would be fine as it is really change mechanism. The other scripting s*** does not matter, like auto recruiting from school, tower limit etc...
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Ben

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Post 07 Jan 2018, 18:43

Re: 8000+ after first tries

thunder wrote:This one more check box would be fine as it is really change mechanism. The other scripting s*** does not matter, like auto recruiting from school, tower limit etc...

The other scripting "s***" may not matter to you, but it might matter to someone else. When they request that their feature be added, too, what will we say to them? Why can your checkbox be added and theirs not?
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thunder

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Post 07 Jan 2018, 19:23

Re: 8000+ after first tries

Ben wrote:
thunder wrote:This one more check box would be fine as it is really change mechanism. The other scripting s*** does not matter, like auto recruiting from school, tower limit etc...

The other scripting "s***" may not matter to you, but it might matter to someone else. When they request that their feature be added, too, what will we say to them? Why can your checkbox be added and theirs not?


Good and reasonable question. Well, in my opinion at this moment TH is something what is totally unbalanced and will destroy the game balance what was set up under long years. Everyone knows the KaM (TSK) Remake balance is very sensitive. So there is a very strong reason why this TH be not added on this way as basic implemention.
If you search for the TH on the forum you will see the pros and cons in tons of topics. Why yes and why not hould implement. Even there are lots of topic which are discussing what ways would be nice to implement the th into the game. I've never seen that any of the topic would agree in the form/way to implemention. Everyone wants to see in the game but the HOW and on WHAT way question is always stay open.

The dynamic scripts opened new ways and more than 5 TH scripts are there. Most of the players agreed that the units for Goldchest is a kind of easy way. Some players would see these units from the Barrack. Than would be easier to match the units price/strenght to the regular ones. And then really would be new strategies too.

I don't want to hurt anybody but based on this logic we could delete all of the sliders and everything be scripted.

I say no to this type of TH. I don't use to play KaM nowadays but I know from the real life the optionial settings and checkbox on one page is fine if you know what turn on and off at a multifunctional application.

It is only a check box. OK, I know how to script the very basics, but maybe my little brother doesn't. And the problem is not this check box. Rather that you can not present a player who tells us how would be fair and balance to add them. At this moment the TH is cheat cheategory.

And just for defending the original 'classical' game play - The TH should not be useful in early game it would have to be a kind of late game building.
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sado1

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Post 07 Jan 2018, 21:29

Re: 8000+ after first tries

Thunder, you're spamming walls of text when we didn't even play a proper testgame yet... It should be more than obvious that the current prices (or even the entire way Townhall works) are subject to change. Rey used his best judgement when thinking of the first version of Townhall to be tested. If this doesn't work, it will be changed, so what's the problem? It's waaaaay to early to shoot down the entire idea and panic lol.
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Krom

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Post 08 Jan 2018, 08:53

Re: 8000+ after first tries

"Classic" TH (which I can not call classic at all) is entirely SP thing and needs heavy reworking for modern MP.
But Rey has got to start from something.
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
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Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
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The Dark Lord

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Post 08 Jan 2018, 11:41

Re: 8000+ after first tries

If the town hall is balanced, there is no reason to exclude it from any game. However, map makers might want to disallow players to build it for several reasons. In that case, I guess the map maker should use scripts to block the town hall AND notify the players (you don't want to go full gold only to find out that you can't make a town hall).
After yesterday's game it is quite obvious that the town hall is very imbalanced right now. Gold is so easy to produce compared to, for example, iron weapons, and leather takes so much time to set up. Town hall units are very weak against ranged unit. Not in the least because their own ranged unit, the rogue, is entirely useless. Bullet made 60 barbarians, 60 rogues and 10 vagabonds in 60 minutes (with 2x game speed - on lower speed and thus with more micro I'm sure he can do more). That's way too much to counter with anything you can pump out of the barracks in 60 minutes. Well, I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I do think that spamming town hall units is way easier.
So what needs to be done? They need to be more expensive of course. The town hall should be a complementary way of producing more soldiers than just out of your barracks. And if you go mass TH units, you should have a decent army but not one that, without much effort, outclasses almost any barracks army.
Then again, with a barracks you are much more versatile (most TH units die like flies), and in the long run it is better for sure (gold will run out fast for your enemy).
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thunder

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Post 08 Jan 2018, 13:50

Re: 8000+ after first tries

(gold will run out fast for your enemy).

:mrgreen: A burnt word by you TDL- Market. Set up 3 markets and trade leather/skin and trunks and you can get the infinity gold production. Anyway most of the locations has insane amount of coal because of iron production too, and the iron ore is available for trading too. So there are many good trades for gold and gold ore to setting up long games for TH.
The new upgraded graphs can help to compare the army productions of the diferent build strategies. Trained Unit per minute and the armies stranght.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 08 Jan 2018, 14:56

Re: 8000+ after first tries

Ah yes. I did not think of that. However, there is a very good solution for this problem. My avatar will show you quite well what I'm talking about.
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thunder

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Post 10 Jan 2018, 09:14

Re: 8000+ after first tries

Thunder against the Townhall? No, I'm just a kind of reminder of this:
Q: Why did you remove the town hall?
We think it is “cheating” and doesn’t fit the game style. In KaM you have to make a complex economy to produce anything. (e.g. there are 4 processing steps to make leather armour) The town hall allows you to make an army with only one resource and a handful of buildings. We don’t think that fits into the KaM style.
Later in development we might consider adding it back into the game redesigned.


To me was hard to accept this quote, but after the programmed TH dynamic scripts have seen exactly what does this mean.
Agree, need some kind of refreshment for the Remake, but I don't feel that this TH implementation thing is fully discussed. As I feel it is decided to add it to the game and will be what will be. Still don't see clearly how is the balancing plans as the actual TH is good in everytime. (in early and in late game also)

TH pros:
-More various armies
-new building
-new strategy ways
-new building for training troops
-+1building what have to destroy
-+1 building to training troops if the barrack would be blocked by one unit.
-very good for short pt games
-fun for pt less ffa
-warm welcome to SP games and campaings
These are quite good resaons to be work it around.

TH cons:
-Breaking the sensitive balance and it is still not figured out how will be fixed
-the TH has constant performance in time. -Set up market strats.
-TH has same power in time without huge weakness. As like market is good only in the lategame, so not break the early game balance. Taxed TH maybe?
-insane amount of unit in longer pt games (over 45mins). AS the gold can be stored in TH...Why? the game has Storehouse already...
-one type of wares unit making ----->
-40-43building is enough for making 80(barb)-250(rebel-rouge) units at normal PT. Normally this use to be around 70-85buildings with 40-70units. (i know the game is not only about 60minutes games, but guess the PT less games are less rarely played than game with PT)
-Based on this builts TH strategy is way more easier. Does it really need for the game?
-TH units from barrack cost with regular wares(or maybe new type of wares) would be more acceptable... and of course more work also.
(-the Siege would be better choice with less balance issues. Siege units could help the attackers and could help to destroy building faster.)

TH pro+cons:
-TH units are shield less
-TH units has speciel strenght, each of them can be very useful and monster.
-thinking with openmind the TH could get newer functions also, or could be a called 'scriptable' building where scripters could give there nonsense ideas :wink: (were there any discussion about it before?)

I'm not against the TH, I only would see it differently in the game. I know... write a dynamic script what is disabling this type of TH.

And yes I'm happy to see there is development of Remake. :wink:
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