Gamespeed + Leaver Discussion [Current problems in KaM]

[pawel95]

Does that mean that everyone is happy with x2 but just a few Pro players?

That question is easy to answer:

a.) I sometimes wait from 15 am until 22 o´clock up to a game on ts will start, so thats not a serious way. Maybe the best games are played there, but that doesn´t mean WE/I have also whole time holidays and have enough time to wait
b.) One example: I have a really good friend ( in the real life). He played KaM TPR often and I want to show him that game again,online. The problem is, that there is no x1 lobby he can enjoy first. Second it will be even harder to play with "Ts guys" unless he will be total "noob".
c.) Why should I only be able to play with ts guys, I also want to find new "friends"

it is a great addition because all these randoms enjoy this brainless gameplay.

Well I didn´t want to say it that way round But yeah for a called "Strategy game" in my point of view you have to take enough time and should think what you could make better next time and not only to play and finish fast as possible even when it will have 0 fun.

i think that it should be bad for the game to deleat the speed slider i mean for the TS and some clans it will be better but I think that the most of the random guys will hate our ideas
So i think that they will play less KaM or stop playing it because it will be "to slow" for them XD
so I think it isnt a good idea to set it back.

I can´t see any valid point. The only thing what will propably happen with max x2 speed: "They won´t play 3 games in a week but 2 for example." Sorry, maybe that´s is only my opinion but when someone will stop playing Knights And Merchants only because no 2,5x or 3,0x is avaible, then I just have to say: Who cares? It is a Remake of the original game. It has a huge amount of improvements, what I say thank you to the remake team. However it should stay a "REMAKE" of a epic and simple game. I agree that the movements of the citizens isn´t smooth and the horses are walking like half deadly dogs, because the game was made for Windows 98 and Windows ME. So I agree that today players want to have different things, that they wanted 10 years ago, but just convert a "czess game(relax,also playable with a beer) into a strategy ego shooter(eyes are hurting,huge concentration needed, with one beer you will have no army )" isn´t the right direction to remake a game, in my eyes...

[WollongongWolf]

Well, I told myself not to get into discussions like these again since they never head anywhere, but I guess I just can't listen to myself...

In any case, so after a facebookpoll, people said they wanted speed x2. Why? So a game could take less time I guess, (because 2 hours game can be barely manageble for some). At that point, I would say, agree, fair point, lets do it.
But now that it's implemented, problems arrive:
-x2 is the standard, if you don't wanna play x2 you are noob and get kicked unless you shut your mouth (that's what the "pro's" say, while even I (as most people know how bad I often am) can beat them).
-as someone above mentioned: some pc's just don't handle x2, so they get low fps => slower game (so they still play x1, but now it's more lag, thus the game is less responsive => playing same speed, but worse). Besides, sometimes this lag is that bad people decide to go for a rehost, and the game is basically already slower than the average game.
-the community is being torn apart.

Is everyone happy with x2? (apart from the pro players). Well, basically most players either accepted it or force others to accept it, or the players are that new to the game they don't know different than playing x2.

Concluding: what looked like a good idea, turned out to have a lot of (big) disadvantages not really expected in the first place (and they were barely/not predictable). Removing the speed slider would disappoint lots of players, perhaps have some of them leave. Decreasing the slider to x2 max might work, but noone knows until it's implemented. Still, removing the slider with as argument point 2 above, I'm wondering how that would turn out. But again...

[The Dark Lord]

I haven't got time to read everything, so I'll reply to some posts later. However, I'll quickly write down how I think about it.
This speed change was a big mistake. It only created disunity. Player A wants x2 speed, player B wants x3, player C wants x1, player D wants 1,5. Peace time speed that is, player A and D also want x1,5 or x2 game speed, while player B and C are fine with x1. It's horrible, there is always someone who doesn't agree. Even if, with TeamSpeak players, we play against and with random people and we decide to play with speed x1,5 or x2 it still takes ages to find enough people.
An account system won't work, it will only create more disunity. Especially when things as games won/lost is shown on player's profiles. It will be like in C&C3 multiplayer: balance whining (I don't want to play with him, he sucks / that guy is too good, he has to leave) and it will take even longer to find enough people to start a game. The new build order (woodcutter after school, etc.) that seems to have been accepted by everyone was enough to speed it up. KaM has always been a slow game. I did not see a reason to change it in the first place and I still don't. Games do not take less time now. Maybe they even take more time, because of all the crying and rehosts. The time we spend has just shifted from the game to the lobby.

[pawel95]

The new build order (woodcutter after school, etc.) that seems to have been accepted by everyone was enough to speed it up. KaM has always been a slow game. I did not see a reason to change it in the first place and I still don't. Games do not take less time now.

Exactly the new buildorder brang that huge discussion and we accepted it. However this new changement doesn´t speed anything up like i just said and changes the orignal game.

Btw I just played/tested one more random game with 80 min pt x2,0/x1,5. I watched at the clock. We started at 18:37 and PT was finished after 19:29.... It should end at 19:17. and after pt the game was lagging like i never saw before,because of the fps of some players. I can bet that a normal 65min pt x1,0 game at the same map would bring a "faster" end with more army and more fun(Btw 2 guys just disconnected after the pings were bigger and bigger coming to pt).

[thunder]

Goood to read this topic:) now i know why ive been always kicked from the lobby why nodody join in my lobby if i would like to play for example good old boarder river 8p... finally i understand.
About fast game speed, i agree with Ben,its brainless. I played some game with faster speed,but ...was crazy.
my conclusion was rhe first 20min was enjoyable after this until 30 mins the game was handle and after 40 was absolutly waste of time. Impossible to manage 80+ buildings,delivery sliders,training recruits and watching and fighting on the fronline...
i could advice levels. Yes levels for players. Or a player database. Should to unlock the higher speeds...
i play only 1x speed,for me that also fast after pt,but for me thats the original.
I dont have problem with higher speed gamers,but im sure they need speed controll
I dont remember when could i play in random lobby a total lenght game... trolls leavers etc... absolutaly waste of time. On TS we can orgazinate 1-2 games per day, if there are players of cohrse.
i hate leavers,and farmers -these players make only vinefields and nothing, i call them antigamers. If somebody want to growing only vines go to play single missions...
When i ve wanted to play randoms last time -i counted- i had 27rehosted game...after that i dont try to play with randoms.
Im really sorry, but i should to agree some comments, there are lot of annoyig players.
Ive playing this Remake more thanq1.5 years but in the paste the lobbies were more friendly than now.

[pawel95]

About your last sentence, I thought one more time about it. I am playing the remake really long. When there wasnt even PeaceTime I played it already, so I guess its longer than 2,5 years now and its true that I never saw that kind of lobbies(with players) than today.

[Shadaoe]

If you care about what a noob-non-pro-bad player thinks, I'll say that I dislike too how divided the lobbies are between different speeds, and it's pretty much impossible to manage a kam economy at higher speeds.

[sado1]

I fully support what Wollonglongwolf wrote - these are the worst problems that arose with this speed slider change. Also, I agree with last 2 sentences of TDL's post above... About my own thoughts tho - there's enough here about the problem, and the reasons. Let's start to list the possible solutions:
-delete the slider - not gonna happen, I don't want this to happen anyway but now I wish this slider never existed in the first place (I also supported its idea back then :X)
-cut the slider to x2 - here goes my vote for it.
-think of a different, more casual gamemode.

Last option is the most interesting one. I've been thinking whether I could make some sort of a script that'd for example remove some buildings from the production chain, or something like that... but I never thought about something good enough, like, fast but keeping the KaM spirit. Basically we'd have to "cheat" in a way, to make the gameplay easier, faster and keeping a bit less focus on the game... more casual. I like what Thanatos is doing, even if unsure if that's a step in a right direction: he plays short pt (35) with x2 speed. I played a couple of games like that and it was quite fun while lasted not that much (half an hour?). So: do we have any ideas for a casual KaM gamemode?

[EDMatt]

I think that the speed increase slider is a great addition. I hate it very much in my opinion, though. It's ruined all the challenge in random games. I believe it is a great addition because all these randoms enjoy this brainless gameplay.
HOWEVER
There are already way too many options in the lobby. I can settle for 2.5 gamespeed. Sucks, but I'll manage. Or, I'll manage The Same Rocks and 1.5 gamespeed. What I can't tolerate is 2.5 speed and some map Center castle, for example. Two brainless combination put together is ridiculous. You can reverse this logic for the random (I'll play Golden Cliffs, but not 1.5 speed).

Personally, I think that if we had 1x , 1.5x, and 2x would be enough. 2.5x and 3x are excessive.

If you ask what I want, then I say 1x, 1.25x, and 2x. But what I want is a moot point

When i read it at first, i thought it was romek , but then i looked at the name and it said "Ben". priceless.

[Krom]

@Sado: Simplifying the chain will do even more harm if you think about how it will segregate the lobbies. Even now, with speed sliders that do MINIMAL changement to gameplay mechanics we have these talks. Imagine what happens when there are checkboxes in lobby about Market or FastEconomy you suggest or other mutators(!).

[Ben]

He wasn't talking about mutators, but a script that would be used for specific maps. Indeed, such a special map would be needed for this gamemode, because the maps would need to be much smaller.

[Krom]

@Ben: I remember talks about different maps tastes dividing the community. Some played Golden Cliffs and some played Cursed Ravine, randoms joined and leaved if they saw map they did not liked, some hosts had to wait a lot of time to collect a lobby because noone wanted to play map they set. Surprisingly it was much alike this thread

[Da Revolution]

@Ben: I remember talks about different maps tastes dividing the community. Some played Golden Cliffs and some played Cursed Ravine, randoms joined and leaved if they saw map they did not liked, some hosts had to wait a lot of time to collect a lobby because noone wanted to play map they set. Surprisingly it was much alike this thread

The difference now is that both options exist. Back then it were just the maps, now it's about the maps AND the game speed.

[Jeronimo]

@Ben: I remember talks about different maps tastes dividing the community. Some played Golden Cliffs and some played Cursed Ravine, randoms joined and leaved if they saw map they did not liked, some hosts had to wait a lot of time to collect a lobby because noone wanted to play map they set. Surprisingly it was much alike this thread

Surprisinly Krom... one day you will want to play a casual match, and realize that playing KaM is not longer fun.

Future is darker: Mutators idea will destroy KaM essence once for all (infinite minerales ,etc).
Right now "game spirit" isn't being ruined by game mechanics, but for lobby additions.

Is it "too difficult to accept" for developer team to go "1 step back"?
Force everyone to play x1 always (old lobby), and let them discuss only Map choice and PT timer.

There are very interesting opinions above me... Dark Lord, thunder, pawel, etc have some very precise lines respect this problem which is growing worse.

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

From a developer point a view there's a real problem with all of this 'critique' (or not, depends on how you look at it):

The die-hard KaM fans who used to play KaM when it was new feel like 'all' the lobby additions are kind of destroying gameplay. Except for when you play with other veterans,
that know what KaM used to be like (community players). NEW players however, are probably attracted by the new options and started playing because of the higher speeds,
because let's face it: KaM is actually a reeaaaally slow game.

So you see, there isn't really a solution. If the developers would remove game speeds from the lobby (for example), they would satisfy most/all community players, but they'll probably lose
A LOT of new players which is bad for business. In the current situation, veterans can still play, but only with a small group of people. I think that for attracting more players they've
made a good decision implementing game speeds. Personally I don't like it, but I can completely imagine why they did it and probably would've done it myself.

That being said, evolution isn't always bad. Game speeds and other options allow for different gameplay and tactics, so the possibilities are endless. Maybe it would be nice to have some sort
of "Classic KaM" game option, to show what kind of lobby it is in one glance. Lobbies with altered setting could be something like a "Custom lobby".

Ergo: they can't just remove stuff.