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Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

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sado1

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Post 22 Jun 2014, 16:02

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Since everyone is quick to present their ideas, and I don't want them to be even considered just yet, I'll just quote my post again so it seems like more people are in support of what I wrote:

sado1 wrote:We didn't test nightlies properly indeed. I thought we'd wait for RC to make a full switch of TS crew since an RC didn't look too distant. I suggest keeping the bonus as it is for now, so we can test it in RC.




xD
I promise to not do it again though :)
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Esthlos

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Post 08 Oct 2014, 13:50

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Now that I know a little about scripting, I made a little fight test... a script that would repeatedly pit armies against each other and keep track of the result.
This allowed me to easily get a way larger pool of results than what I got the last time I tried. :mrgreen:

EDIT: It seems that issuing an order every second cripples the performance of ranged units... I'm striking out these results so that they do not get easily confused with those from the second batch of tests, where I changed the script to one that doesn't issue the attack order when not needed.

Each troop is ordered to attack the farthest enemy troop flag holder every second (to prevent situations where troops would just stare at each other because the survivors were too far from the enemy to automatically engage)

The test took place in r6619 (current RC3)

Test 1

Team 1: 1689 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 35 Axe Fighters
  • 34 Crossbowmen (placed right behind the Axe Fighters)

Team 2: 1680 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 30 Sword Fighters
  • 30 Bowmen (placed right behind the Sword Fighters)

100 battles:
  • team 1 (Axe Fighters+Crossbowmen) won 0 of them.
  • team 2 (Sword Fighters+Bowmen) won 100 of them.

Test 2

Team 1: 1680 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 28 Axe Fighters
  • 28 Sword Fighters (same position as the Crossbowmen in test 1)

Team 2: 1680 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 30 Sword Fighters
  • 30 Bowmen

100 battles:
  • team 1 (Axe Fighters+Sword Fighters) won 50 of them.
  • team 2 (Sword Fighters+Bowmen) won 50 of them.

Test 3

Team 1: 1680 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 28 Sword Fighters
  • 28 Axe Fighters (positions switched from those in test 2)

Team 2: 1680 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 30 Sword Fighters
  • 30 Bowmen

100 battles:
  • team 1 (Sword Fighters+Axe Fighters) won 86 of them.
  • team 2 (Sword Fighters+Bowmen) won 14 of them.

Test 4

Team 1: 1263 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 63 Militia
  • 30 Bowmen (placed right behind the Militia units)

Team 2: 1260 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 30 Axe Fighters
  • 30 Bowmen (placed right behind the Axe Fighters)

100 battles:
  • team 1 (Militia+Bowmen) won 92 of them.
  • team 2 (Axe Fighters+Bowmen) won 8 of them.


Conclusion

Running tests is way easier and faster with dynamic scripting :P :wink: :mrgreen:
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Last edited by Esthlos on 09 Oct 2014, 15:51, edited 4 times in total.
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Kamykos

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Post 08 Oct 2014, 17:03

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Good job with the testing! Test 2 is huge for me. I mean how can it be 50-50? :O
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Esthlos

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Post 08 Oct 2014, 17:25

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Kamykos wrote:Good job with the testing! Test 2 is huge for me. I mean how can it be 50-50? :O

I've improved the script... it seems that giving an order every second cripples ranged units' performance.
Now I'm running the tests again, and for now the results are different... will update soon.
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Esthlos

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Post 08 Oct 2014, 18:11

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Upgraded the script, now it only issues the order every second if more than half of a troop's units are idle.
I'm copy-pasting my post with the old results for its structure, but I'm updating the values.

When meeting the requirement, each troop is ordered to attack the farthest enemy troop flag holder every second (to prevent situations where troops would just stare at each other because the survivors were too far from the enemy to automatically engage)

The test took place in r6619 (current RC3)

Test 1

Team 1: 2522 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 52 Axe Fighters
  • 51 Crossbowmen (placed right behind the Axe Fighters)

Team 2: 2520Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 45 Sword Fighters
  • 45 Bowmen (placed right behind the Sword Fighters)

100 battles:
  • team 1 (Axe Fighters+Crossbowmen) won 13 of them.
  • team 2 (Sword Fighters+Bowmen) won 87 of them.

Test 2

Team 1: 2520 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 42 Axe Fighters
  • 42 Sword Fighters (same position as the Crossbowmen in test 1)

Team 2: 2520 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 45 Sword Fighters
  • 45 Bowmen

100 battles:
  • team 1 (Axe Fighters+Sword Fighters) won 18 of them.
  • team 2 (Sword Fighters+Bowmen) won 82 of them.

Test 3

Team 1: 2520 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 42 Sword Fighters
  • 42 Axe Fighters (positions switched from those in test 2)

Team 2: 2520 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 45 Sword Fighters
  • 45 Bowmen

100 battles:
  • team 1 (Sword Fighters+Axe Fighters) won 43 of them.
  • team 2 (Sword Fighters+Bowmen) won 57 of them.

Test 4

Team 1: 1889 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 94 Militia
  • 45 Bowmen (placed right behind the Militia units)

Team 2: 1890 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 45 Axe Fighters
  • 45 Bowmen (placed right behind the Axe Fighters)

100 battles:
  • team 1 (Militia+Bowmen) won 78 of them.
  • team 2 (Axe Fighters+Bowmen) won 22 of them.

Conclusion

Unless there's something that I'm missing (or unless I made some other scripting error), there actually seems to be a problem... even a full melee army, which should hard counter the Bowmen+Sword Fighters combo (thanks to the shield bonus), at best stands a fair 50% chance to win against it. :O

(I didn't really do the proper math here, but 43% shouldn't be really statistically different from 50%, considering the better but still not very large pool of data...)
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Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Esthlos

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Post 09 Oct 2014, 12:58

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Just in case somebody needs it: I've upgraded the script again.

Now it is easier to set up the battles (just edit the unit types for both armies and the number of soldiers for the first army, and the script will estimate an equivalent second army Corn-wise) and the number of battles to be recorded before the script stops is easily changed.
Just edit the first lines of OnMissionStart.

Also, the overlay text is now color-coded and states the composition, formation and cost of both armies, the number of won battles for each, the total number of battles fought and their average duration.

P.S. Reading on a black background is easier... can you guess why every corner of this testing map is now a black square? :P
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Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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The Dark Lord

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Post 09 Oct 2014, 17:35

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Hmm some of these tests are questionable. When both teams have ranged units it's easy, but when one team has only melee that player should not simply engage battle but try to flank. In a real fight (human vs human) the player with the ranged units will be pushed back into a corner/his town. If the player with the ranged units decides to engage in an open field he is doomed, no doubt about that... So it really depends on the map and the players, simply having these two armies clash does not provide an answer.
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Esthlos

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Post 13 Oct 2014, 08:35

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Good point, but I doubt that the player with ranged units (apart from preventing being flanked) can really choose when to fight... after all, the player with melees can force an engage by ordering a Storm Attack.
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Esthlos

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Post 16 Oct 2014, 09:52

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

A few more tests... at first I thought that there was a problem with Sword Fighters being too strong, but maybe the problem does indeed lay with Crossbowmen being too weak, especially when compared to Bowmen.

I know, it's too late to adjust the game's balance before the next KaM Remake official release, but nothing forbids us from collecting data and discussing anyway, does it? :P

Test 5

Team 1: 2519 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 64 Pikemen
  • 45 Bowmen (placed right behind the Axe Fighters)

Team 2: 2520Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 45 Sword Fighters
  • 45 Bowmen (placed right behind the Sword Fighters)

100 battles:
if every troop was forced in a 15 units per row formation:
  • team 1 (Pikemen+Bowmen) won 44 of them.
  • team 2 (Sword Fighters+Bowmen) won 56 of them.

if intead the Pikemen were allowed to take a 17 units per row formation:
  • team 1 (Pikemen+Bowmen) won 73 of them.
  • team 2 (Sword Fighters+Bowmen) won 27 of them.


Test 6

Team 1: 2025 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 45 Lance Carriers
  • 45 Crossbowmen

Team 2: 2025 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 45 Pikemen
  • 45 Bowmen

every troop had a 15 units per row formation
100 battles:
  • team 1 (Lance Carriers+Crossbowmen) won 0 of them.
  • team 2 (Pikemen+Bowmen) won 100 of them.


Test 1 redone with every troop on a 15 units per row formation

Team 1: 2522 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 52 Axe Fighters
  • 51 Crossbowmen

Team 2: 2520 Corn if their equipment and Gold were bought at the Market
  • 45 Sword Fighters
  • 45 Bowmen

every troop had a 15 units per row formation
100 battles:
  • team 1 (Axe Fighters+Crossbowmen) won 5 of them.
  • team 2 (Sword Fighters+Bowmen) won 95 of them.
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Ben

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Post 17 Oct 2014, 05:44

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Crossbows seem fine in current RC
#thunderposting #greentornado
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Esthlos

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Post 17 Oct 2014, 12:37

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Ben wrote:Crossbows seem fine in current RC

Then maybe Bowmen are the problem?

I don't know, I mostly play on Single Player (mostly with scripts, lately), and there anything can work.

What seems to be showing from these tests is that battles Bowmen+any Iron non-ranged troop vs Crossbowmen+any leather non-ranged troop seem to have the same results of any Leather non-ranged unit vs its corrispective Iron unit, as if ranged units had no actual effect on the outcome or as if Bowmen were much stronger than Crossbowmen, unlike other Leather units that seem to be weaker than their Iron corrispective.
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Ben

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Post 17 Oct 2014, 15:01

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Nah, bowmen aren't a problem I think.

If there is a problem, then I think it is that axe fighters are too weak. But i think axe fighters suck so of course I'd say that :p
#thunderposting #greentornado
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The Dark Lord

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Post 17 Oct 2014, 19:31

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

In my opinion, it is a misconception that crossbowmen + axe fighters should be equally strong as sword fighters + bowmen, or that crossbowmen + lance carriers should be as strong as pikemen + bowmen. Of course the differences shouldn't be too big, but if sword fighters + bowmen win against crossbowmen + axe fighters in 100% of the tests it isn't necessarily bad.
Why not, you ask? Because of game dynamics. Since melee units go on front, they die first. So the player with swords/bows loses most of his valuable sword fighters, while the other player loses his much-easier-to-replace axe fighters. He still has his crossbowmen, and with some new reinforcements (assuming players' economies are equal) he might now hold the advantage.
However, this theory is only valid when crossbowmen slaughter bowmen; which they, as far as I know, are incapable of...
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Ben

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Post 17 Oct 2014, 21:09

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Those are wise points. For me, it's more about whether the strategies are comparable (in the grand scheme).
#thunderposting #greentornado
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Brolian

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Post 18 Oct 2014, 09:45

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Hello, good test soldiers,
I think in K&M hard to balance units. Simple 20 Crossbowmans + 20 Sword carriers must always win vs 20 BowMans + 20 Axe Fighters.
More important is tactic, and sytuations where that two armies meet.
For example i think when we start mission and All is close like: || ||
We can test and First army should win all fights.
But when we test in another sytuation where for example one army defend and another attack like: || <----||
So army who will defend can always win even that army have only leather units vs only iron
So test is hard and i think all is good and just i think we cannot good test.
For example move all gruop just 2 tiles away from second army or add some mountains/river etc , and we gain another results.

I think axe figters is good, and bowmans. Its mine opinion :-)
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