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Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

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Ben

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Post 22 Apr 2014, 03:23

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

What I meant by "one shot" is that a group of 15 or so xbows can kill swords in a single volley ;)

Anyway, like I said, I'm willing to give this a shot (no pun intended :D)
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sado1

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Post 22 Apr 2014, 14:39

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

And I am against. Please try 25% instead of 0% shield bonus. Xbows are already quite powerful now, when facing an army with mainly swordmen.
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Ben

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Post 22 Apr 2014, 15:29

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

And I say "sado go die" XD

But maybe sado is right...perhaps we should take baby steps? At first I thought that maybe lace+pike strats would be interesting, but that would really put us back in the days where knights were almost useless.

So yeah, take back what I said. Let's try 25%...
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pawel95

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Post 22 Apr 2014, 15:41

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

sado1 wrote:And I am against. Please try 25% instead of 0% shield bonus. Xbows are already quite powerful now, when facing an army with mainly swordmen.



Well sad but he is right. What I have seen in the current release from side of testers was like Matt just did it : :P "I do mass xbows and axefighters and let´s see if they will have chance against swordmen and bowmen"

That´s a bit hard maybe, but I agree really with sado. To be serious now, most players have tried to play like 2-3 games with xbows and just decided to go back to bowmen then.
Maybe let´s go smaller steps. 0% shield bonus won´t end good, I like to guess :D

Lewin, what you think abouy the scout topics?
Last edited by pawel95 on 23 Apr 2014, 11:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Ben

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Post 22 Apr 2014, 21:48

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Split topic to here. Let's stay on topic. ~Ben
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Lewin

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Post 27 Apr 2014, 10:33

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Ok, we'll try 25% for the next beta :)
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pol

Post 14 May 2014, 09:25

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

honestly i have to admit that xbows suck so deeply in the current demo... it transformed from ultimate killer to completely useless unit. nobody uses xbows now because its pointless.
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pawel95

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Post 14 May 2014, 14:50

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

pol wrote:honestly i have to admit that xbows suck so deeply in the current demo... it transformed from ultimate killer to completely useless unit. nobody uses xbows now because its pointless.


1.) Make an account here on the forum, instead of this trolling anonymous guest account.
2.) "Suck so deeply" is great! Your sentence helps everyone here very much. Now Lewin and Krom know for sure why Xbows are too weak in the current Release :|

So please bring some valid points, why xbows are too weak in your opinion and add your suggestion to the topic. Thank you.
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Lewin

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Post 22 Jun 2014, 03:14

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Sooooo I guess making crossbowmen armour piecing didn't help much? Or is nobody testing? How about we try a small increase to bowmen aiming time? (200ms) I have been seeing a lot of bowmen spam, it would be nice to see a few lance carriers or axefighters.

Post your ideas or objections here.
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Esthlos

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Post 22 Jun 2014, 09:21

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Maybe you could try having Crossbowmen shoot their first bolt (you know, when they stop moving and start attacking) sooner than Bowmen's first arrow, and having bolts travel faster than arrows, while having Bowmen shoot more often?

This way, Crossbowmen would be more effective against single cavalry units and would win any ranged duel, but Bowmen would bring higher sustained damage per second.

This should introduce a tactical/strategical difference: you would make Bowmen if you want prolonged battles, pairing them with Knights and Sword Fighters for fast engages and to keep the enemy in the fight, and you would make Crossbowmen for a more hit and run/kite/poke strategy, and would pair them with the more expendable Lance Carries and Axe Fighters to help disengage from long fights.

What do you think?

(On a related note, in my opinion a building that allows you to slowly train Recruits from Food instead of Gold would make Wood troops more viable)
Last edited by Esthlos on 22 Jun 2014, 09:28, edited 2 times in total.
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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sado1

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Post 22 Jun 2014, 09:24

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

We didn't test nightlies properly indeed. I thought we'd wait for RC to make a full switch of TS crew since an RC didn't look too distant. I suggest keeping the bonus as it is for now, so we can test it in RC.
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thunder

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Post 22 Jun 2014, 09:38

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Hi!

For me seems the xbows are slower than bowmans. When fighting 10 v 10 bows and xbows then seems 10 v 10 bows v bows. The difference is the price of the unit.
Need somekind of speciel thing to the xbows which make this unit better than bows:

-More defence vs bows
or
-faster shuting
or
-shut and halt
or
-larger shouting distance /we are talking about special bow tools from metal so that should to be stronger than a simple bow, and if i now well phisicaly this unit can shut further than the bow/

t
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Tiank

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Post 22 Jun 2014, 09:47

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Yes, xbows are slower, but piercing supposed to make them worthy. As sado said, it wasn't tested properly. However, a change that Lewin suggested about Bowmen sounds interesting, but first xbows should be tested as they are, with that piercing change.
Without honour, victory is hollow.
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pawel95

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Post 22 Jun 2014, 11:06

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Lewin wrote:Or is nobody testing?


What I have seen so far, only the guys that are participating in the battle tournament actualy played the newest nightly one time in their life :D :D

So keeping the current settings until the RC or telling those players, that play the game every day, that they should switch the versions :P would be the 2 best options idd.
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Jeronimo

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Post 22 Jun 2014, 12:05

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

I have seen lots of games (replays), including those from battle tournament.

My opinion about how to solve this ranged situation is simple and short:

Archers: Fire rate between original and current... Read final part of this post.
Crossbowmen: Since Halt-trick was removed, they gain their average boost against shield units, but the 50%, not the 75%.

My view of current situation in nightly is:

Crossbows: For the Halt-trick removal they needed a compensation, but -75% is too much from my POV, their fire rate is fine, but archers generally win in economic games, because can be massed with ease (like instead of training lances spam, now is worse with archers spam).

I like 50% because it's something ok and not abusable... meanwhile archers are being abusable because of their extensive quantity and Legolas style.
viewtopic.php?p=34440#p34440

Archers: Lewin check this from that post, you read when George states his worryings.
viewtopic.php?p=30205#p30205

Here is a more review of archers, which I find really biased, not convincing conclusions... that Xbows are easier to make that Archers.
viewtopic.php?p=16739#p16739

Economically speaking... It's possible to have 5-6 swines running with 9-10 woodcutters and 2 tanneries, making +4 archers every 45 seconds, while Iron production is limited and depends on more variables (coal, iron supply). Add "Archer > Crossbow" general results, and you understand why KaM is currently imbalanced (in that aspect).

In that speficic topic, we spot the beginning of this odyssey... People in favour of the "Legolas fire rate" -> only leaded to nowadays campy campy camping.

My final post there, resumes what I wanted for this game's archers. CONTEXT was fire rate still had original values.
viewtopic.php?p=17192#p17192

Original fire rate: 3 secs x arrow
My proposal: 2,7 secs x arrow (see post)
Current fire rate: 2,4 secs x arrow
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