Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

[Nissarin]

So I want to say again that MASS BOWMANS SPAM IS NOT WORKING.

Unless it's a public game.. mix longer pt with lots of towers and base camping, it's a lot of fun, NOT.

[Ben]

As for Romek's comments on bowmen...I suppose I agree, actually. Sure bowmen were overused for a long time, but recently players started making knights again, thus pikemen started being used, and bowmen started being used less. Heck, I even see lances, but mostly only from Romek, so I suppose they are still silent. Anyway, many players are starting to make axefighters after they reach 50ish bowmen which is nice. KaM balance is almost where it was in the shield patch days, with the exception that swordfighters and bowmen are still the main strategy, regardless of the map/situation. It would be nice to see axefighter+crossbowmen armies again...

[Jeronimo]

May I make a prediction : Swords will become a bigger priority after peacetime .
Let me explain:
Bowmen are spammed alot after peacetime because of the fact that a leather unit (that will also contribute and contributes towards your food/lategame) is a great counter as of now to sword fighters in mass, and it is rather easy to spam(imo leather unit shouldn't be so effective against iron, its wrong!).
If you reduce the speed of shot of a bowman, it will just mean that swords will become even more important than they are now (better tanks, more survive-ability for a period of time, lets not talk about knights that's another story).
Now the dilemma.. what do you recruit after peacetime ? sword or xbow? To be honest I won't ever recruit xbow as it is and even if bowmen's attack speed was reduced alittle bit. I would still prefer to have a unit that can both tank defensively and offensively unless xbows had a pushing power greater than that of a bowman (faster attack speed which would make xbows kind of imbalanced).

For me balance in this game is almost perfect right now. The only thing what you guys need to fix is one unit - xbow(they need a little more accuracy or attack speed).

Probably one of best Matt's posts... Explanation is well presented.
My vote for crossbows goes for "little more accuracy" so we have 2 types or ranged styles.

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

Well I don't think my opinion matters much, since I don't play that often. But last weekend, when I played a couple of games, I have to admit: I was pretty 'shocked' by the weakness of xbows. I don't think nerfing bowmen is the solution though, since faster shooting makes sense. But the way it is now, it's definitely a bad idea to train xbows, since they kill waaay too little now, especially with their relatively long reload time.

[Krom]

Bows/XBows strength is in proper management, they need to be cared about and protected. One can't put 30 xbows against 30 swords on a plain field and expect bows to win Maybe better example would be 20 xbows + 10 swords vs. 30 swords. Who will win then?

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

Bows/XBows strength is in proper management, they need to be cared about and protected. One can't put 30 xbows against 30 swords on a plain field and expect bows to win Maybe better example would be 20 xbows + 10 swords vs. 30 swords. Who will win then?

30 swords, if you use them right.

[pawel95]

The 30 swords will win in like 99%
Like already said the xbiws are that weak right now that it doesnt really matter if you have 30 swords VS 15 swords or 30 swords VS these 10 swords and 20-25 xbows

When two enemies really would have these 2 armies, this game would be finished fast. Even thr fact that you can split ip the 30 bowmen in 2x15.

[Bludmaster]

Bows/XBows strength is in proper management, they need to be cared about and protected. One can't put 30 xbows against 30 swords on a plain field and expect bows to win Maybe better example would be 20 xbows + 10 swords vs. 30 swords. Who will win then?

You dont even need to split these 30 in order to destroy 20 xbows 10 swords in 100% cases.

[pawel95]

Who cares. Just what is written down here. The fact is that you can split them Even ADDITIONALY. Sure even with a 0 degree normal attack without any maneuvers the 30 swords will eat the swords of the enemey wihout any problems. With the xbows maybe max 4 swordmen more will be killed (guessed) in comparision to 10 vs 30 swords.

[Krom]

Verified with a few tests, TeamA 30 swords vs TeamB 20 swords + 15 xbows. TeamA always wins.

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

Verified with a few tests, TeamA 30 swords vs TeamB 20 swords + 15 xbows. TeamA always wins.

Which is not what you'd expect if you think about it rationally.

So I think the whole balance / buffing xbows discussion is justified.

[Esthlos]

Verified with a few tests, TeamA 30 swords vs TeamB 20 swords + 15 xbows. TeamA always wins.

TeamA is worth 120 Iron (Gold Chests can be traded for Iron Bars with a 1:1 ratio), TeamB is worth 125 Iron... the matchup was not even balanced: TeamB was worth more resources, but still lost.

12 Sword Fighters+24 Crossbowmen vs 30 Sword Fighters yields the same results, by the way.

[Krom]

Tested the same with axemen and bows. Bows are slightly better, but still TeamB always lost.

Agreed, actual state is quite worse than expected.

[Bence791]

crossbowmen need a little boost (against shielded units? for example make their bolts more 'piercing'?)

Guys, this is a very good idea you missed there.

What causes the axe+xbow strategy being underused? That xbows can't deal so fast with swords (even with the help of axefighters) like bows and swords deal with axefighters (they just melt!). So probably we should indeed make xbow arrows more piercing (reduce the axefighters and swordfighters' defence points against bolts to 2 for axes and 3 for swords, so the original)? For a first test I'd propose this one.

Increasing bolt speed will only change something if there is no actual "combat" between melee and melee (so only if the enemy is moving around and you can shoot at him), since they won't shoot on a higher rate of fire (but they would be more effective against dancing horses and easier to push with, yet the point mentioned above remains the same). And the easiest counter is to catch the axefighters right the way, so you'll lose the least troops because of this buff. Of course it would be awesome versus bows, but still, the main problem is xbows not equalising the weakness of axefighters.

[EDMatt]

Verified with a few tests, TeamA 30 swords vs TeamB 20 swords + 15 xbows. TeamA always wins.

Which is not what you'd expect if you think about it rationally.

So I think the whole balance / buffing xbows discussion is justified.

I cannot believe that we actually agreed on something once in my kam forum experience ...