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Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

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Nissarin

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 01:16

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

A lot depends on how you test it and the rng.. I did a few tests runs myself and got quite interesting results sometimes (check out the replay). Generally bows did a better job than xbows, also in pure sword vs sword results can be quite ridiculous (like over 10 surviving on one side..). Other than that the longer the battle took place (limited "contact" zone) the more advantage xbows had (obviously).
You might argue that my testing method is quite "artificial" but I want to remind you that unlike most of the games at your level of play in public games camping is a norm.
Verified with a few tests, TeamA 30 swords vs TeamB 20 swords + 15 xbows. TeamA always wins.
Which is not what you'd expect if you think about it rationally.

So I think the whole balance / buffing xbows discussion is justified.
It's not that strange, sword fighters are more expensive unit, just because the amount of resources spent is comparable doesn't mean a few ranged units over short period of time should give you significant advantage. If you invested in more expensive sword/axe fighters (scouts/knights) you should get more "value" compared to cheaper (easier to spam) units. IMHO ranged (support) units should give you advantage in fight (more over time) but not win battles.
While xbows are too weak compared to bows, I think that bowmans are actually a slightly too strong right now, maybe instead of buffing the xbows dps you should actually buff their defences making them more resilient to offset their slower rate of fire/initiative while not upsetting overall balance too much.
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Lewin

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 02:32

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

crossbowmen need a little boost (against shielded units? for example make their bolts more 'piercing'?)
Guys, this is a very good idea you missed there.

What causes the axe+xbow strategy being underused? That xbows can't deal so fast with swords (even with the help of axefighters) like bows and swords deal with axefighters (they just melt!). So probably we should indeed make xbow arrows more piercing (reduce the axefighters and swordfighters' defence points against bolts to 2 for axes and 3 for swords, so the original)? For a first test I'd propose this one.
That sounds like an interesting idea. It would make crossbowmen good against shielded units when bowmen are bad against them (a distinctive difference between bowmen and crossbowmen). So if your opponent is using mostly shielded units you would really need to have crossbowmen.

It also makes sense, since a powerful metal crossbow bolt might be able to pierce a shield, where as a wooden long bow arrow would be more likely to bounce off.

I'm not sure that completely removing the shields bonus for crossbows is a good idea... that might make shielded units be under used again (or bowmen under used). But we could test that and see how it goes, if it makes shielded units under used we can change it to be a smaller bonus against crossbows (+0.5 defence instead of +1)

What do you think?
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Bludmaster

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 02:49

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

A lot depends on how you test it and the rng.. I did a few tests runs myself and got quite interesting results sometimes (check out the replay). Generally bows did a better job than xbows, also in pure sword vs sword results can be quite ridiculous (like over 10 surviving on one side..). Other than that the longer the battle took place (limited "contact" zone) the more advantage xbows had (obviously).
You might argue that my testing method is quite "artificial" but I want to remind you that unlike most of the games at your level of play in public games camping is a norm.
Verified with a few tests, TeamA 30 swords vs TeamB 20 swords + 15 xbows. TeamA always wins.
Which is not what you'd expect if you think about it rationally.

So I think the whole balance / buffing xbows discussion is justified.
It's not that strange, sword fighters are more expensive unit, just because the amount of resources spent is comparable doesn't mean a few ranged units over short period of time should give you significant advantage. If you invested in more expensive sword/axe fighters (scouts/knights) you should get more "value" compared to cheaper (easier to spam) units. IMHO ranged (support) units should give you advantage in fight (more over time) but not win battles.
While xbows are too weak compared to bows, I think that bowmans are actually a slightly too strong right now, maybe instead of buffing the xbows dps you should actually buff their defences making them more resilient to offset their slower rate of fire/initiative while not upsetting overall balance too much.
Can you please tell me why are bows "slightly too strrong?" And how buffing xbows defence will help? :) Tell me? :)

Dont get me wrong but if you say something like this i expect you have proofes to it ... for example i have proofes to everything i said to this topic so far :)
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EDMatt

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 03:41

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

I just hope that whatever you guys do, it will never make xbow + axe fighters as strong as swords + bowmen.
that would be broken.
And I most certainly don't want the situation where you can be better off with mostly xbows .


Completely removing shield bonus is silly imo.

Xbows should still remain as they are vs axe fighters.
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Ben

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 04:20

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

crossbowmen need a little boost (against shielded units? for example make their bolts more 'piercing'?)
Guys, this is a very good idea you missed there.

What causes the axe+xbow strategy being underused? That xbows can't deal so fast with swords (even with the help of axefighters) like bows and swords deal with axefighters (they just melt!). So probably we should indeed make xbow arrows more piercing (reduce the axefighters and swordfighters' defence points against bolts to 2 for axes and 3 for swords, so the original)? For a first test I'd propose this one.
That sounds like an interesting idea. It would make crossbowmen good against shielded units when bowmen are bad against them (a distinctive difference between bowmen and crossbowmen). So if your opponent is using mostly shielded units you would really need to have crossbowmen.

It also makes sense, since a powerful metal crossbow bolt might be able to pierce a shield, where as a wooden long bow arrow would be more likely to bounce off.

I'm not sure that completely removing the shields bonus for crossbows is a good idea... that might make shielded units be under used again (or bowmen under used). But we could test that and see how it goes, if it makes shielded units under used we can change it to be a smaller bonus against crossbows (+0.5 defence instead of +1)

What do you think?
OMG!!!1111 we are finally going to get to test something :D <3 ^^

Ahem...anyway :P

In my opinion, removing the shield bonus would be a laughably terrible solution. It would change the game back to r4001, where crossbowmen ruled alone. Therefore, I suggest something closer to 0.5.
I used to spam this forum so much...
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Esthlos

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 08:45

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

OMG!!!1111 we are finally going to get to test something :D <3 ^^

Ahem...anyway :P

In my opinion, removing the shield bonus would be a laughably terrible solution. It would change the game back to r4001, where crossbowmen ruled alone. Therefore, I suggest something closer to 0.5.
Uhm... I like the idea of removing the shield bonus vs Crossbowmen's bolts only, but what about increasing the shield bonus vs Bowmen's arrows too?
If coupled with an additional increase in general damage from Crossbowmen's bolts and a slight decrease in their rate of fire, this would mean that with Bowmen you can decimate anti-horse and ranged units, even if there are a lot of them, while being useless versus shielded units, while Crossbowmen would decimate the shielded soldiers but be way less effective versus the rest, especially if there are a lot of them.

This way, you shouldn't have a reason for one soldier type to always dominate the other: Crossbowmen would rule when the enemy has lots of shields, while Bowmen would rule in straight up ranged vs ranged confrontations and when the enemy has very few shields.
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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T*AnTi-V!RuZz

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 09:02

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

I think the bowmen are fine atm and that only the (impact of) xbows should be changed.

To be honest I'm wondering why they were even nerfed in the first place, but that's probably because I have a very bad memory. They were probably too strong back then, but right now they're really weak. I think xbows should be strong, I mean they fire and iron bolt at high speed. I doubt armor would even help, but of course we have to think about balance.

In short: xbows should kill more. Not just shielded units, but in general.
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dicsoupcan

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 09:14

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

I think the bowmen are fine atm and that only the (impact of) xbows should be changed.

To be honest I'm wondering why they were even nerfed in the first place, but that's probably because I have a very bad memory. They were probably too strong back then, but right now they're really weak. I think xbows should be strong, I mean they fire and iron bolt at high speed. I doubt armor would even help, but of course we have to think about balance.

In short: xbows should kill more. Not just shielded units, but in general.
The reason whythe xbow was nerfed was to give bowmen a chance to be usefull. but it appeared they were still too weak, so their fire rate got buffed which caused the bowmen to be very powerfull in comparison with the xbow. But i agree that the xbow should kill more.
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Esthlos

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 09:22

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

I think the bowmen are fine atm and that only the (impact of) xbows should be changed.

To be honest I'm wondering why they were even nerfed in the first place, but that's probably because I have a very bad memory. They were probably too strong back then, but right now they're really weak. I think xbows should be strong, I mean they fire and iron bolt at high speed. I doubt armor would even help, but of course we have to think about balance.

In short: xbows should kill more. Not just shielded units, but in general.
In "real life", bolts can pierce through armor with no problem at all, but crossbows take forever to load compared to using a bow.
Some bows can pierce armor too, but you need a lot of strength and resistance to be able to repeatedly use them...

(Of course, it depends a lot on the bow, crossbow, arrow, bolt and armor, but still what you wrote makes sense.)
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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T*AnTi-V!RuZz

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 09:49

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

I think the bowmen are fine atm and that only the (impact of) xbows should be changed.

To be honest I'm wondering why they were even nerfed in the first place, but that's probably because I have a very bad memory. They were probably too strong back then, but right now they're really weak. I think xbows should be strong, I mean they fire and iron bolt at high speed. I doubt armor would even help, but of course we have to think about balance.

In short: xbows should kill more. Not just shielded units, but in general.
In "real life", bolts can pierce through armor with no problem at all, but crossbows take forever to load compared to using a bow.
Some bows can pierce armor too, but you need a lot of strength and resistance to be able to repeatedly use them...

(Of course, it depends a lot on the bow, crossbow, arrow, bolt and armor, but still what you wrote makes sense.)
It seems it doesn't take that long.'Only' twice as long. But like I said: I know that xbow bolts pierce almost anything (especially in that time), but that would kill all balance.
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Nissarin

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 10:11

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Can you please tell me why are bows "slightly too strrong?" And how buffing xbows defence will help? :) Tell me? :)
That's just my general impression, you would expect higher loses when attacking but right now if the defender hits big enough number of bowman (which is not that strange in public game) you need a lot more troops to get through. As for buffing the defence - it's purely to help xbows fighting the bows, in melee range it won't matter too much.
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MpranavM

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 11:07

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

Nice video though told that bows are faster than xbows but bows needs more energy to keep firing and xbows spend small amounts of energy
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pawel95

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 11:44

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

I really agree that we shouldn't think about deleting the shield bonus ago and get back to old problems. Like anti said bowmen vs swords seems "nearly" fine. The problem itselves just exist because of the weak xbows. So we should first think about boosting them.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 13:11

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

crossbowmen need a little boost (against shielded units? for example make their bolts more 'piercing'?)
Guys, this is a very good idea you missed there.

What causes the axe+xbow strategy being underused? That xbows can't deal so fast with swords (even with the help of axefighters) like bows and swords deal with axefighters (they just melt!). So probably we should indeed make xbow arrows more piercing (reduce the axefighters and swordfighters' defence points against bolts to 2 for axes and 3 for swords, so the original)? For a first test I'd propose this one.
That sounds like an interesting idea.
If I remember correctly it was your own idea. :P

And I don't think the shield bonus should be removed either, crossbowmen just need a little boost against shielded units, lets say, 20%? That might actually make militia more important because they could absorb the strong crossbow bolts while the sword fighters keep fighting --> bowmen versus militia and tadaaa: both are used? Just my theory.
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T*AnTi-V!RuZz

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Post 28 Nov 2013, 13:41

Re: Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

And I don't think the shield bonus should be removed either, crossbowmen just need a little boost against shielded units, lets say, 20%? That might actually make militia more important because they could absorb the strong crossbow bolts while the sword fighters keep fighting --> bowmen versus militia and tadaaa: both are used? Just my theory.
Well imo that doesn't make any sense. Why would xbows only become stronger against shielded units? The situation you'll get then is that it doesn't matter if they shoot pikemen or swordsmen, both die equally fast. Then what's the use of the shield?

I stand by what I said earlier: buff the xbows against all units.

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