Bowmen and crossbowmen balance

[thommerd]

yes Islar but that will only help the xbow in a defending way, because you cannot build a xbow tower easily at the open field or someone elses base.

[Esthlos]

Inspired by Lewin's test, I tested a few things too using the map editor (tested multiple times actually, since then I tried rotating the match-ups a few times to see if the direction mattered)
(Both factions -except for the kiting test- were owned by the AI and have been set to have full hunger meter in the editor).

Ranged vs Ranged:
32 Bowmen vs 32 Crossbowmen -> Crossbowmen always won. Sometimes steamrolled the poor Bowmen, sometimes suffered heavy losses instead, but still always won.
(formations: 8x4 , 2 tiles separating the troops ; direction didn't seem to matter - yet I've the feeling that the Crossbowmen attacking from the bottom to the top of the map tended to suffer a lot more casualties than those attacking from top to bottom, but since at first this wasn't supposed to end up on the forum I didn't note the exact numbers, thus I'm not sure of this - and I'm too lazy to do the tests again now )

Also, both kite very well - the only difference I could find is that when hitting -> walking back -> hitting, Bowmen can walk less and hit more, while Crossbowmen need to walk more and hit less (but they hit harder)(it seems they can recharge their crossbows while moving).

These things, in addition to Lewin's tests (that showed that Crossbowmen are at least slightly stronger than Bowmen vs other troops) should mean that Crossbowmen are still way stronger than Bowmen, aren't they?

A few other things I tested and find interesting, but that you probably already know:

Producing Wooden Shields in 1 Armory workshop and then trading them for gold ore, coal or iron ore yields slightly more material than extracting them from 1 mine, but of course needs a way larger production chain in order to get the Wood needed.

8 Serfs -> 1 Farm (16 tiles of land) -> 1 Mill -> 1 Bakery yielded the most food (80 in stock at the Storehouse after 1 hour)
8 Serfs -> 3 Farms (16 tiles of land each) -> 2 Swine Farms -> 1 Butcher's yielded the second most food (72 in stock at the Storehouse after 1 hour)
8 Serfs -> 1 Vineyard (9 tiles of wine) yielded the least food (20 in stock at the Storehouse after 1 hour - I suspect most o fthe Wine produced has been drunk, since Wine is also the food restoring the less energy, meaning that in a town like this that only produces Wine people will have to eat way more often, thus rapidly depleting the food stock)
(All the three chains had an empty Storehouse and an empty Inn at start and were owned by 3 different AI players)

The production of the Weapon smithy is 1,23 (circa) times faster than that of the Armor smithy

8 Sword Fighters vs 8 Pikemen -> Sword Fighters won pretty much always
(formation: 8x1)

8 Pikemen vs 8 Knights -> Pikemen always won
(formation: 8x1)

8 Knights vs 8 Sword Fighters -> Knights won pretty much always
(formation: 8x1)

8 Axe Fighters vs 8 Militia -> Axe Fighters always won
(formation: 8x1)

8 Axe Fighters vs 8 Lance Carriers -> Axe Fighters won pretty much always
(formation: 8x1)

8 Lance Carriers vs 8 Scouts -> Lance Carriers always won
(formation: 8x1)

8 Scouts vs 8 Axe Fighters -> Scouts won pretty much always
(formation: 8x1)

In a race from one side of the map to the opposite, everybody in a straight line starting at the same time (used soldier's orders in the editor), Scouts and Knights had the same speed and arrived together first way before everybody else, and Militia, Axe Fighters, Sword Fighters, Bowmen, Crossbowmen, Lance Carriers and Pikemen had the same speed and arrived together (way after the Horsemen).

[Jeronimo]

Today I played a 3v3 on Western Desert, and tried making Xbows to fight the others archers.
The result is obviously inconvenient in r5503.

A realistic and good solution is making the Xbow bolt travel faster. At TeamSpeak I agreed with [R.A] Madgamer who also participated in match, that having fast projectile animation with bolts, adds variety and makes Xbow worthy.

The idea is they recharge slower but miss less = +accuracy.
I felt today I was wasting iron because archers were owning Xbows, and in same quantities 20 vs 20 (using micro you know).
Archers shoot faster and then go back while the Xbow bolt is falling... bolt should reach objective faster.

[Bence791]

Can be interesting, yet the most worthy for consideration imo

[The Dark Lord]

I disagree with everyone who says crossbowmen are useless. Surely they are not as good as they used to be, but their power is still the same (but bowmen shoot faster and shielded units got a bonus). It's not like they don't do anything. But why are people complaining? Isn't this what we wanted? Didn't we want to get rid of 'mass xbow'? Didn't we say they were too powerful and archers are useless? Didn't we want a bonus for shielded units? Here, we all got it, and now we are complaining because in the good old days we had crossbowmen and we don't see them so much now. Aw it's so sad I almost start to cry.
Not. It would rather make me throw up.
It's sickening for me, people cry about something, they get what they want, and after a while they want to change it back. Recently people were talking about the farm patch, saying it's not that good after all; blablabla. People leaving the game because 'it's not good for them'. Seriously? Was TSK/TPR any good for you? Where you didn't even need melee troops? Make up your mind.

Anyway, if something really has to be done... I still like Lewin's idea best (making the bolts fired by crossbowmen more piercing, thus making shielded units a little more vulnerable to crossbow fire). But mark my words: new army/soldier combinations will be used and the same discussion will start all over again. Just about a different unit.

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

But mark my words: new army/soldier combinations will be used and the same discussion will start all over again. Just about a different unit.

I marked your words, but now I can't get the marker off my screen anymore
I'd like a compensation..



On topic: I agree 100% with the quote above.

[Lewin]

I'd rather nerf bowmen, crossbowmen seem okay right now but bowmen seem to comparatively over powered since we decreased the aiming time (the ideal situation would be where bowmen and crossbowmen are both good choices and are used approximately equally).

I think increasing the aiming time of archers back to closer to what it used to be. Remember that in the past bowmen were rarely used because crossbowmen were better, that's why we decreased their aiming time in the first place. So hopefully we can find a balance between how it used to be and how it is now
Balance changes are hard to get right the first time.

I'm open to testing other ideas like making arrows travel slower than bolts in a balance test at some point if a lot of people think it's a good idea. In fact, please start topics on other balance changes you think are needed (are there any issues with the shields patch that have emerged recently?)

@TDL: Well improving balance will always be an iterative process, some changes go too far and then we have the opposite problem so have to compensate. Previously bowmen were very rarely used, now crossbowmen are very rarely used. Neither of those things is a good situation, so if we choose a value in the middle hopefully we can get both units to be used. I do agree in general that people are very quick to complain about "balance problems" but that's why we listen to a broad range of opinions and make decisions after considering the evidence. I'd like to think that we've made a number of positive balance changes, all food types are now used (previously wine was unused), building food production is necessary for your village to survive (some people used to mostly ignore food), shielded units are used alongside lances/pikes (axefighters/swordfighters used to be ignored), leather and iron are both useful and necessary for a powerful army, etc. I don't think KaM TSK/TPR were well balanced for multiplayer, since they weren't played multiplayer very much. Surely you think some of the balance changes we've made have been for the better?

[The Dark Lord]

I agree on bowmen being a bit too powerful; yet I am afraid that reducing their strength will make shielded units overpowered. These balance discussions are good even though I hate them; I'm just fed up with the constant moaning about everything.

@Anti I could send you an apology email.

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

@Anti I could send you an apology email.

Can you attach a new screen while you're at it?

(I'll stop the off-topic now )

[Jeronimo]

Anything you like Lewin... If you prefer decreasing archers aiming time, no problemo.
Would stay equal or still slighty faster than Xbows aiming time? (after nerfing)

This issue may be the last respect military balance IMO, because all others units seem fine (even cavalry).

[Ben]

I disagree with everyone who says crossbowmen are useless. Surely they are not as good as they used to be, but their power is still the same (but bowmen shoot faster and shielded units got a bonus). It's not like they don't do anything. But why are people complaining? Isn't this what we wanted? Didn't we want to get rid of 'mass xbow'? Didn't we say they were too powerful and archers are useless? Didn't we want a bonus for shielded units? Here, we all got it, and now we are complaining because in the good old days we had crossbowmen and we don't see them so much now. Aw it's so sad I almost start to cry.
Not. It would rather make me throw up.
It's sickening for me, people cry about something, they get what they want, and after a while they want to change it back. Recently people were talking about the farm patch, saying it's not that good after all; blablabla. People leaving the game because 'it's not good for them'. Seriously? Was TSK/TPR any good for you? Where you didn't even need melee troops? Make up your mind.

Anyway, if something really has to be done... I still like Lewin's idea best (making the bolts fired by crossbowmen more piercing, thus making shielded units a little more vulnerable to crossbow fire). But mark my words: new army/soldier combinations will be used and the same discussion will start all over again. Just about a different unit.

I don't know how many times I, and others, have to tell you TDL: Crossbowmen became weak when several things happened
1) They lost their micro ability
2) Leather became easier to gather

• a) Mass bows are much more feasible
  b) The complement of xbows are axefighters, which are better than bowmen in small amounts, but when massed, bowmen are better
  c) Mass bows complement swordfighters, which take iron away from xbows

3) Since Bowmen and Swordfighters are used so much, axefighters are often put up against swordfighters easily eat up axefighters before the xbowmen can do any good damage. Without melee to protect them, xbowmen are now easy pray. Good luck shooting and going back after losing the fight.

So did xbows directly get weaker? Not really, except their micro loss. But one small change can make a huge impact indirectly. I think, for example, that decreasing swordfighters attack would make xbows better because axefigthters would survive a little longer to protect the xbows.

It's sickening for me, people cry about something, they get what they want, and after a while they want to change it back. Recently people were talking about the farm patch, saying it's not that good after all; blablabla. People leaving the game because 'it's not good for them'. Seriously? Was TSK/TPR any good for you? Where you didn't even need melee troops? Make up your mind.

That's called "testing," Dark Lord. It is normal to tweak things back-and-forth when testing.

Forgive me if I seem rude, but your post got me fired up

[dicsoupcan]

i know this is offtopic, maybe a mod can fix thatfor us (see ben you got something to do right now! )

but no one complained about bowmen too strong in the shieldpatch. but since the shieldpatch many things changed, for example:
- the shoot and halt glitch is fixed, making shoot and go back movements with crossbowmen not possible anymore, where the bowmen still can do it.
- the farm patch made farms more effecient, exactly as we asked for. We did forget the consequenses of this, and now we see it. Leather can be easily massed now making mass bowmen a very powerfull strategy.

Please consider this in the balance discussion, since not only the reduced aiming time buffed the bowmen.

[Ben]

Thank you Dicsoupcan! Thank for so much for saying that, really. Very valid points.

[The Dark Lord]

3) Since Bowmen and Swordfighters are used so much, axefighters are often put up against swordfighters easily eat up axefighters before the xbowmen can do any good damage. Without melee to protect them, xbowmen are now easy pray. Good luck shooting and going back after losing the fight.

There is no use in going back if you win the fight.

It's sickening for me, people cry about something, they get what they want, and after a while they want to change it back. Recently people were talking about the farm patch, saying it's not that good after all; blablabla. People leaving the game because 'it's not good for them'. Seriously? Was TSK/TPR any good for you? Where you didn't even need melee troops? Make up your mind.

That's called "testing," Dark Lord. It is normal to tweak things back-and-forth when testing.

You call it testing when people leave the game because of a small change, I call it crying. Especially if we relate it to the original game; we all liked TSK/TPR, Remake is much better, are we happy? Yes, but if one change is wrong we leave the game, because then it 'just sucks'.

Forgive me if I seem rude, but your post got me fired up

It's a bit rude but I expected something like this, my post wasn't the nicest either.

[-George Stain-]

I think, for example, that decreasing swordfighters attack would make xbows better because axefigthters would survive a little longer to protect the xbows.

I like it Ben, that is what I suggested few months ago (with direct numbers based on calculation). And that is why shield patch failed.. shield patch is awesome thing but incomplete.. what happend there is that swordfighter became Tank and Damage Dealer in one person and that is bad IMO.

I even suggested reduce attack of all cavalry and axefighters, to be more comparable with lancers and pikes. (ofc aiming time of archers reduce too)

What we want to achieve is balance in leather units, so all leather units are viable choice and other side balance of iron units, so you must more think over for what you spend your iron. I think comparing of leather and iron units isn't necessary.

thank you for read my horrible english.