Scripting demo release candidate

[Lewin]

Please explain how possibility to build woodcutter for all players 5min earlier in the game breaks the 3vs3 map, and why is that specifically GoldenCliffs but not other maps?

If you can build your woodcutters directly after you built your school you will get more trees early on. More trees equals more buildings like for example an early ironproduction. So a working ironproduction can be possible under 20 minutes into the game because espeacially on goldencliffs the distances to the resources are really small. And like that you´ll get really big armys after pt which doesn´t suit the maps. And so this problem occurs on a lot of other maps that have the old school-inn-quarry-woodcutter-order and are built for that order. A perfect example was also Across the Desert. It was an often played in earlier releases but then some people decided to make the map easier by giving the possibility to make a quarry and a woodcutter at the start. Like that the map got just too easy and hadn´t the same challenge like the original one , so noone played it anymore from that moment.

But if you played with 10 minutes less peacetime, then this would balance out and players wouldn't have such large armies, and an early iron production wouldn't matter because peacetime would end sooner. Allowing earlier woodcutters/stonemasons cuts time off the start of the game. If you want the gameplay to go unchanged, you need to also cut time off peacetime so you still have roughly the same amount of time to build the rest of your village after you start getting your woodcutters/stonemasons. So if you play with less peacetime the result should be exactly the same as before.

Why does it matter if you get iron production 20 minutes into the game? When did you normally get it? Lets say you normally got it at 30 minutes. Then take 10 minutes off your peacetime, and you end up with the same result as before.

Have you tried playing with less peacetime to see what effect that has?

Also, this change affects all players equally. So what's imbalanced about it?

[Pizzaisgood]

Hm i think i didnt say enough about the start of the game.
Taking golden cliffs as example , you had to watch out that you dont run out of timber ( like having 5 minutes no timber because trees have to grow ) and so had to build smart so you wont have those woodproblems. Now you can have really early woodcutters which will plant early trees , so once you cut all the trees around in your area the new trees are already grown and the dificulty of managing your trees is totally gone. This map had to be played smartly to have a good army after pt or a good build, but now it is really easy to build on that map. Its no real big challenge anymore now and thats the problem. We ( Romek, Mully,Matt,me, ...) want to have a challenge in building , thats why we are playing maps like golden cliffs very often because they give us a challenge in building.

[Mulberry]

To begin with, I would like to support Pizza in his kind and clever analysis. I recommend to take all his recommendations into consideration as he is one of the most inteligent and reasonable players around.

Lewin, as for the testing, please reconsider the way of communicating between testers and programmers. The feedback is valuable and I would be really greatful if you, somehow, paid more attention to testers opinion. There are a lot of volunteers who are different people, with various opinion, sitting on Team Speak every day waiting for you to visit. The testing of previous RC has finished and no one requested to summarize the work. May I know why?

I would really like to clarify the question why you, as creator of Remake, like to decrease the varianty of the game and force someone to use unsustainable strategies.

Thank you for your time, patience , understanding and all your effort. I will do my best for you to develop the game.

Best regards

[The Dark Lord]

To begin with, I would like to support Pizza in his kind and clever analysis. I recommend to take all his recommendations into consideration as he is one of the most inteligent and reasonable players around.

Lewin, as for the testing, please reconsider the way of communicating between testers and programmers. The feedback is valuable and I would be really greatful if you, somehow, paid more attention to testers opinion. Not all players are reachable on forum and most of forum users are not qualified enough to judge on certain aspects of the game. There are a lot of volunteers who are different people, with various opinion, sitting on Team Speak every day waiting for you to visit. The testing of previous RC has finished and no one requested to summarize the work. May I know why?

I would really like to clarify the question why you, as creator of Remake, like to decrease the varianty of the game and force someone to use unsustainable strategies.

Thank you for your time, patience , understanding and all your effort. I will do my best for you to develop the game.

Best regards

As much as I dislike the changed build order, I have to disagree with you at some points. I think Lewin and Krom take us pretty seriously. Also, I don't like the accusing tone in the 'volunteers who are different people, with various opinion, sitting on Team Speak every day waiting for you to visit'.
Give them some time to change their opinions Mully.

[kocsis1david]

When quitting from the replay viewer, the shown statistics are not for the human player. Maybe the last selected?

[Mulberry]

To begin with, I would like to support Pizza in his kind and clever analysis. I recommend to take all his recommendations into consideration as he is one of the most inteligent and reasonable players around.

Lewin, as for the testing, please reconsider the way of communicating between testers and programmers. The feedback is valuable and I would be really greatful if you, somehow, paid more attention to testers opinion. Not all players are reachable on forum and most of forum users are not qualified enough to judge on certain aspects of the game. There are a lot of volunteers who are different people, with various opinion, sitting on Team Speak every day waiting for you to visit. The testing of previous RC has finished and no one requested to summarize the work. May I know why?

I would really like to clarify the question why you, as creator of Remake, like to decrease the varianty of the game and force someone to use unsustainable strategies.

Thank you for your time, patience , understanding and all your effort. I will do my best for you to develop the game.

Best regards

As much as I dislike the changed build order, I have to disagree with you at some points. I think Lewin and Krom take us pretty seriously. Also, I don't like the accusing tone in the 'volunteers who are different people, with various opinion, sitting on Team Speak every day waiting for you to visit'.
Give them some time to change their opinions Mully.

Please note that you have much more ways to communicate with programmers which reflects in better unerstanding. That might be a reason why you feel their serious attitude and I dont. During r4279 testing I never reveived any questions and was never asked to help with some particular issues. Not to mention that all of testers including me were active. I wish I could share my opinion efficiently, somewhere else and not only on forum, in fact I didn't have another way. Why? Look on shoot and halt situation, I wrote pm's, guys posted on forum... now we can't even play because of the solution used towards this issue

[The Dark Lord]

Please note that you have much more ways to communicate with programmers which reflects in better unerstanding. That might be a reason why you feel their serious attitude and I dont.

I do have Lewin's/Krom's email address but that's about it. I don't mail them my opinions; I choose to write them here so others can read it as well. That way, people who agree can support me, people who disagree can fight my statements, and people who don't know may be persuaded.

During r4279 testing I never reveived any questions and was never asked to help with some particular issues. Not to mention that all of testers including me were active.

If Krom and Lewin had to ask each player their opinions, there wouldn't be time left for programming. Reporting issues is the players' responsibility.

I wish I could share my opinion efficiently, somewhere else and not only on forum, in fact I didn't have another way. Why? Look on shoot and halt situation, I wrote pm's, guys posted on forum... now we can't even play because of the solution used towards this issue

And they already said they would fix it. If it wasn't for the testers, that wouldn't have happened.

[pawel95]

With «asking» mul just means that they could join ts e.g one time and «ask» us -before a new rc comes out- if we think the changes weren't that good or if the proposed change should be tried or not. he doesn't mean that they should ask everyone individualy :p

[Mulberry]

@ Mulberry - 07 Apr 2013, 22:21
I think you didn't understand what I mean
Everything is fair I am not saying it is not
I didn't say that someone should ask me, I said that I was a tester and I am a good example of someone who hasn't been asked
No one should ask me, in particular, Dark. But as a tester I should be asked. I am not some random person, I am the part of the process. YOu can chane "I" with "he" or "they". Do you understand?

@ The Dark Lord - 07 Apr 2013, 22:25
Well yeah I get what you mean now



@ The Dark Lord - 07 Apr 2013, 22:24
The forum is accessible 24/7, while not every TeamSpeak player is on TeamSpeak 24/7, which means they would have to join TeamSpeak a lot of times
For them it is easier to read opinions here

@ Mulberry - 07 Apr 2013, 22:25
1-2 times during 5 month would be more than enough!

With «asking» mul just means that they could join ts e.g one time and «ask» us -before a new rc comes out- if we think the changes weren't that good or if the proposed change should be tried or not. he doesn't mean that they should ask everyone individualy :p

Yes, that is what I meant

[Jeronimo]

Hm i think i didnt say enough about the start of the game.
Taking golden cliffs as example , you had to watch out that you dont run out of timber ( like having 5 minutes no timber because trees have to grow ) and so had to build smart so you wont have those woodproblems. Now you can have really early woodcutters which will plant early trees , so once you cut all the trees around in your area the new trees are already grown and the dificulty of managing your trees is totally gone. This map had to be played smartly to have a good army after pt or a good build, but now it is really easy to build on that map. Its no real big challenge anymore now and thats the problem. We ( Romek, Mully,Matt,me, ...) want to have a challenge in building , thats why we are playing maps like golden cliffs very often because they give us a challenge in building.

I was afraid about early woodcutter being too "PT rushy" in those maps as Golden Cliffs.
Krom suggestion was that of really fast woodcutter coming from Storehouse.

Still we have the option to try only Quarry unlock, but from School (not Storehouse, nor Inn). The slowest from "faster initial phase".
I support at least the intermediate Quarry unlock, the lesser impact from available choices.
Let's try this way... since won't be map-breaking (if that's the correct expression).

I have faith that the middle point, is the correct path.

Krom and I talked about a faster way to start the games, since in first 5 minutes there wasn't considerable action/micro to compete about.
*Waiting for the Inn after School, blocking food delivery to Inn, building 4/5 quarries asap (because full use of initial stone)... dull pro? order.

[Pizzaisgood]

I was afraid about early woodcutter being too "PT rushy" in those maps as Golden Cliffs.
Krom suggestion was that of really fast woodcutter coming from Storehouse.

Still we have the option to try only Quarry unlock, but from School (not Storehouse, nor Inn). The slowest from "faster initial phase".
I support at least the intermediate Quarry unlock, the lesser impact from available choices.
Let's try this way... since won't be map-breaking (if that's the correct expression).

I have faith that the middle point, is the correct path.

Krom and I talked about a faster way to start the games, since in first 5 minutes there wasn't considerable action/micro to compete about.
*Waiting for the Inn after School, blocking food delivery to Inn, building 4/5 quarries asap (because full use of initial stone)... dull pro? order.

Even early quarrys will speed up the unlocking of the woodcutters too fast on maps like Golden Cliffs which will make the map way easier than it was before.
Really, the map should stay with the old build order because koczis12 planned the map really carefully for the school-inn-quarry-woodcutter-order. I can´t see why the mapmakers shouldn´t be allowed to set the buildorder as they want it to be. It
worked like that very well for so long. Maybe someone can explain me why the mapmakers shouldn´t have that decision anymore , because i really can´t see your point there .

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

Just dropping by, but I don't agree with Mulberry.

It's fairly simple. Krom and Lewin develop the Remake; you're part of the select group that's allowed to test RC's. What I don't understand, is why it's a problem posting your feedback on this forum. It's the official KaM Remake Support Forum and we have specific sections and topics for it. You mentioned that everyday people are waiting on Teamspeak for Lewin to come by and discuss things. I'd say that if he wasn't showing up, I'd try it elsewhere, like here maybe?

What I'm trying to say is: Krom and Lewin have a lot of work on their hands, and it's great for them to have only a few places to check for Release Candidate feedback. E.g. e-mail and forum. What they don't want is all that information scattered everywhere like e-mail, Teamspeak, Skype, IRC Chat, forum mini-chat, Facebook, homing pigeon, etc. It's way too much work to check all those different forms of communication for feedback.

The one thing that could solve this, is that Krom and Lewin both clearly state where RC feedback should be provided. Then again, Lewin did that already in the Release Candidate e-mail:

Please report any bugs you find, and submit the crash report if it asks
you. You can give us feedback by email or on the forum:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1477

Hence, I'm kind of surprised why you blame him for not visiting Teamspeak..

[Jeronimo]

Even early quarrys will speed up the unlocking of the woodcutters too fast on maps like Golden Cliffs which will make the map way easier than it was before.
Really, the map should stay with the old build order because koczis12 planned the map really carefully for the school-inn-quarry-woodcutter-order. I can´t see why the mapmakers shouldn´t be allowed to set the buildorder as they want it to be. It
worked like that very well for so long. Maybe someone can explain me why the mapmakers shouldn´t have that decision anymore , because i really can´t see your point there .

The reason about speeding earlygame, was as said above, bringing more interest to initial building phase, which in many maps it helps (Horseshoe, etc).
What I find hard to understand from TS core group, is why insisting in playing at 60 PT, when the "difficulty of map", "building competence" and any other things mentioned can be played at 55 PT, and get the same "old 60 PT" result.

All Issues respect this unlocking, looks more like fighting to keep 60 PT untouched, and force Lewin/Krom to keep game's balance around it... and is terrible from my POV.

Still I agree that +Woodcutter, is too much for what we use to play in these "slow start maps".
That's why I recommend the alternative choice of only +Quarry, and after School (along with +Inn).

The original KaM "+Inn segment" is senseless in a competitive RTS.
I must repeat again... that 55 PT brings the "stolen" difficulty to Golden Cliffs.

[sado1]

Anti, I know where does your post come from, but Mully didn't mean that forums are useless. Some things are just easier to SPEAK about. I found it out during the great balance flamewars (very long time ago), that if we joined IRC chat and discussed about the balance in real time, we actually had a nice, polite, constructive discussion. It turned out to be the same on Teamspeak (and that natural thing, which speaking is, makes it even more nice). Much easier to understand someone else's way of thinking, while in a continous conversation. Forums are the kind of 'slow communication', which isn't a bad thing (they just play another role, forums are not Teamspeak...), but, let's say, the "bandwidth" that you can send information with, is much much better on TS. If there's a new page full of walls of text on forums, you might be too bored to actually read it. If you fear that we want to replace forums with Teamspeak, then, man, never! What would we do without the forums?

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

Anti, I know where does your post come from, but Mully didn't mean that forums are useless. Some things are just easier to SPEAK about. I found it out during the great balance flamewars (very long time ago), that if we joined IRC chat and discussed about the balance in real time, we actually had a nice, polite, constructive discussion. It turned out to be the same on Teamspeak (and that natural thing, which speaking is, makes it even more nice). Much easier to understand someone else's way of thinking, while in a continous conversation. Forums are the kind of 'slow communication', which isn't a bad thing (they just play another role, forums are not Teamspeak...), but, let's say, the "bandwidth" that you can send information with, is much much better on TS. If there's a new page full of walls of text on forums, you might be too bored to actually read it. If you fear that we want to replace forums with Teamspeak, then, man, never! What would we do without the forums?

I disagree completely. I like to think speaking instead of posting is for lazy people.

Speaking is indeed faster and yes, forums are in some way slow communication. But, there's one HUGE advantage: every single soul on earth is able to read it, even long after it was posted. That way you reach a way bigger audience than the relatively few on Teamspeak and everyone's able to join the discussion.

The only thing I agree with is that you might get bored reading stuff because of walls of text, but you can always come back when you do feel like it, or just decide that you actually don't really care that much about the topic at hand.