Abuse strategies

[Krom]

!	MODBREAK: Split this off topic discussion from here

I said maybe, atleat it could prevent fish abuse for instance...

What's fish abuse?

I start to believe all these abuses are actually just different tactics, which we need to embrace, not lock out. Some examples:

Market abuse - it appears that there are still profitable trades which should be banned cos that's abusing. But in fact there are some clever guys who found the way to play unlike other ones and use it to their advantage. Do we need to remove market tactic? No. We should just make sure it's not overpowered.
Towerspam - defensive tactic, do we need to remove this defensive element from the game to let everyone play in offensive style?
Builders rush - another clever tactic to exchange excess builders with enemy defenses. Clever. But we plan to fix it because that does not meets well with KaM "code of honor".
Fish abuse - haven't heard about this one before, but what is wrong if someones tactic based on getting cheap food at start? Why not calling stone abusers those who build more than 2 quarries? ))

Problem is that many say that certain tactics should be nerfed/banned because they dont like them / can't apply them. While in fact thats diversity of KaM and we should do the opposite - encourage more different tactics and gameplay styles. (of course fixing those that are imbalanced and/or cheatlike)

[Leeuwgie]

I said maybe, atleat it could prevent fish abuse for instance...

What's fish abuse?

I start to believe all these abuses are actually just different tactics, which we need to embrace, not lock out.

No offense Krom but I think you need to embrace suggestions/complaints brought to you by players who do actually play this game (above Sado level ). I'll try to explain.

Abuse for me is using a lame tactic to your advantage and they are mostly used for rush tactics. Others are forced to play like this too or else they likely lose the game. There is a thin line between abuse and cheating. Players who like to abuse are more likely to cheat too, atleast that's what I noticed.

Some examples:

Market abuse - it appears that there are still profitable trades which should be banned cos that's abusing. But in fact there are some clever guys who found the way to play unlike other ones and use it to their advantage. Do we need to remove market tactic? No. We should just make sure it's not overpowered.

Clever? Yes if you ask them they will say they are clever. I think it's more the other way around. They are likely not skilled enough to set up a decent town and enough troops in time without some heavy market abuse. Serious market abuse is like a do or die strategy resulting in a rush right away to outnumber the guy who played ''normal'' (read: who set up a food supply, etc.).
Is it normal to trade all your starting food for trunks in the market? Is it normal to trade trunks for mass horses?

Towerspam - defensive tactic, do we need to remove this defensive element from the game to let everyone play in offensive style?

It is not impossible to play defensive without 22 towers for example. I think it's kind of lame and that it also provokes people to use their builders as suicidals.

Builders rush - another clever tactic to exchange excess builders with enemy defenses. Clever. But we plan to fix it because that does not meets well with KaM "code of honor".

Honor, yes that's the word I was looking for. Honor, the opposite of lame

Fish abuse - haven't heard about this one before, but what is wrong if someones tactic based on getting cheap food at start? Why not calling stone abusers those who build more than 2 quarries? ))

It's easy to explain, fish is the only resource that can be shared with your enemy. I you place as much fishers as possible from start you're ''stealing'' fish from your enemy. Another downside is that with a lot of fish in your storehouse you don't feel the need to set up farms like you normally would and gives you the possibility to focus only on your weapons and bring out a massive rusharmy. Atleast more then your enemy. The point is that you can survive to peacetime using ''your'' fish only resulting in all kind of do or die strats. In this particular game the player who used this tactic lost because I counterattacked him using the same strategy. I was forced to play the same, and I just don't like that. Imagine how fast this lake was empty with 8 fishers... Again, like the building blockade not a cheat but lame gameplay.


yeterday I played a game where someone builderrushed a player and managed to keep 1 builder alive who blocked his entire goldproduction unnoticed (he placed a building over the road), I can't unerstand that someone wants to play like that, but we allow it to happen if we don't fix it.

Problem is that many say that certain tactics should be nerfed/banned because they dont like them / can't apply them. While in fact thats diversity of KaM and we should do the opposite - encourage more different tactics and gameplay styles. (of course fixing those that are imbalanced and/or cheatlike)

It's not only that I don't like it (others might like it). And I can apply them if I want to but I just don't like being forced to use the same tactics.

P.S. This should be probably split into another topic.

It's the wrong topic so feel free to put this somewhere else but people asked me some questions I liked to answer.

[Lewin]

What's fish abuse?

I start to believe all these abuses are actually just different tactics, which we need to embrace, not lock out.

No offense Krom but I think you need to embrace suggestions/complaints brought to you by players who do actually play this game (above Sado level ). I'll try to explain.

These kinds of comments makes me feel tired of working on the KaM Remake. It was more fun when the community had more praise and less trolls/complaints/demands/general attitude of "we play the game more so we know best, just do what we say because we're pros and you're just noobs who program the game for us".

Of course we take your complaints/suggestions seriously, that's why we check this forum almost every day and reply to suggestions/complaints that are posted here. That's why we have a document listing balance complaints from the community that need to be addressed. But just because one guy who thinks he's a pro who knows everything about KaM complains about something, it doesn't mean we're just going to take his advice blindly. We need to be convinced of the existence of the problem, then we can start discussing solutions.

The general arrogance of certain members of the community and their unwillingness to explain a problem thoroughly (instead just saying stuff like "you should just trust me I'm a pro and all my pro friends agree with me") makes taking part in these balance discussions feel like I'm bashing my head against a wall, and makes me want to take a break from KaM for a week or two.

To make it clear: If everybody is forced to use one strategy (e.g. using 4 fishermen and no other food production) in order to win against people using that strategy, then it's over powered and needs to be addressed. But if someone has a different strategy that works just as well (e.g. sausages + wine) then it's not over powered, but we still get complaints from people who are like "That guy is only making fish and no other food. Fish abuse!". It's the same with the market, if someone can trade a lot with the market and produce as much stuff as someone who produced it all the normal way, then people scream "That guy produced all that stuff through the market. Market abuse!". Of course strategies can be over powered, such as if someone using that strategy can always beat people are not using it, forcing everyone to use it, which reduces diversity. However people are very quick to scream abuse when they see something that they don't think is how KaM should be played, even if it's not an overpowered strategy. People complain to us about so many different "abuses" that it seems like there is no strategy that is not "abusing" SOMETHING. That's what Krom's post was about, and I agree with him. This doesn't mean fish/market abuse is not overpowered, and if you're convinced it is then please explain to us in detail (and politely) why it is overpowered and not just another strategy we should embrace.

To further complicate things there are also some matters that are more of personal taste than balance. For example some people don't like when a player build 22 towers, I personally don't mind because they'll have less troops than me and other people who made less towers, and sieging their tower wall is (in my opinion) one aspect of KaM gameplay. But some people dislike it so we can have mutators to change the game rules and limit the number of towers they can make.

Thanks for your explanation of "fish abuse". I'd like to hear other player's opinions on this. Does it work well to only produce fish and no other food? Does it only affect maps with fishing water shared between teams? Does it depend on peacetime (with higher peacetime surely you'd run out of fish and starve?) Is it always more effective to build 4 fishermen than different options such as 2 farms, mill, bakery? Or sausages which produces leather as a bonus bi-product? When fish water is not shared is it more efficient to take the fish slowly and combine it with other food sources?

[Leeuwgie]

Nice to see a new topic created for this issue. About flaming/insulting/etc. I understand that you guys get tired every once in a while from people complaining endlessly. I don't see myself as someone who likes to insult people or something and I don't feel the need to do that. I'll like to contribute to the KaM community in a good way using my own skills/interests like making maps, make some shoutcasts, help organize a tournament, etc. The nice thing is that the Remake is made for fans by fans, and it's still improving. And I will never say that you should take something for granted because some ''pro's'' know best. I'm just saying that experienced players who play this game with players of the same skill are more likely to run into balance issues/exploits/abuse or however you want to call it, compared to most other players. I hope that makes sence. We were encouraged to test the beta version and report here what we think about it, what could be tweaked etc. Maybe it's better to see it from the bright side, without people complaining this game wouldn't be at it's current level I think. What bothered me a little is that I bring up something and without understanding my point I get this reaction "I start to believe all these abuses are actually just different tactics, which we need to embrace, not lock out." I just like to be taken seriously that's all. That's why I explained some things in my previous post. Now back to the topic. It's maybe very different for players what they think is cheating or just ''clever'' gameplay. Maybe I'm too old school. It's just, I don't like to see things being used in a way it isn't supposed to be used. Like using markets/barracks to block entries. Or using builders to empty enemy towers, etc. On the other hand I think in multiplayer all strats must be possible to keep it fun. It's way more fun to play different strats then the same build all the time. I even saw Da Revo using knights for the first time ever yesterday.
In the beta the market is (ab)used alot more then in the previous release so I think it would be better to leave it like it is in the public release. Maybe the fish abuse can be stopped by just adding less fish to some maps (I already did on my latest map). Another way can be to limit the number of fishers that can be build. Anyway, a fix to stop builders from emptying towers would be a good thing for sure. I'm just posting these things here because I don't like to be forced to use the same strats.

[Jeronimo]

These kinds of comments makes me feel tired of working on the KaM Remake. It was more fun when the community had more praise and less trolls/complaints/demands/general attitude of "we play the game more so we know best, just do what we say because we're pros and you're just noobs who program the game for us".

I'm also a victim from this attitude which appeared in lastest months.
If I have to analyze this change of attitude, I would bet it started slowly with the "shield patch" which gave units +1 hp.

There the balance discussions got heat up, and many players "not very known" among TS community, wrote many posts with percentages and stuff... in a way to reject those comments, the aknowledged good players started using their game experience as an "additional valid argument".
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Back to the Topic (new possible map? ), I will write a few points:

1) Fish abuse: Keep it. Approved by me.
Is not broken because resource depletes very fast. It's like Krom said with Stone quarries.
You can build faster than other players if you build additional quarries... yet is this "how it should be"?

Race for fish can end very bad for both players if use it as main food.
Actually, if someone builds 5 fishers, and you build 2 fishers + bread, you have the advantage over time, because opponent won't be paying attention to his food suply "until it's late" and gets a strong crisis.

2) Market abuse: I like market current values (was it 2.0 rate?).

I have been playing alone single player (yes! single player), to test if I can gain a "broken advantage".
Sadly... it is true that for obtaining something, you lose something in exchange.

I couldn't produce more using normal way compared to market way.
And to add, if something is abusable at first minutes, is like Fish matters... you get a strong crisis on next minutes.

3) Tower spam: I approve it as well.
I noticed watching TS replays, that practically noone destroys towers.
95% of players just run into center of base, and half time they lose the internal fight.

Then I think, when those many towers are refilled, it will be twice harder to get into the base...
I would take a few minutes destroying all existing defense (probably even building blockade), before adventuring further.

[Troll]

95% of players just run into center of base, and half time they lose the internal fight.

I'd rather kill those little trolls managing the economy than those towers that will barely be filled because they lack serves.

[Debaron]

Unrelated, but it's amazing how you guys have done precisely what I thought I always wanted with my oldtime favorite game KAM, but unfortunately lacked the skills to do so. And now, with shield buff and all, you're actually even improving it further, carefully sorting out what feedback to incoprorate, and what to ignore. Really, those are some amazing skills for any positions of leadership and management. Thanks. Playing KAM now is like one huuuuge orgy, one that I had always dreamed about.

[Krom]

Thanks for providing fish "abuse" example. It does not looks abuse at all to me. In fact it is a good thing to have a competition over common resource in a non-blocking way during peacetime!

[Leeuwgie]

Ofcourse, competition is where it's all about in multiplayer. it's just that if you can survive on fish alone we get absurd rushes right after pt and I thought you guys wanted some restrictions on such rushes.

[FeyBart]

(...)
Playing KAM now is like one huuuuge orgy, one that I had always dreamed about.

You got some straaaaaaaaange things going on up in that head o' yours, brah!

[Lewin]

I don't see myself as someone who likes to insult people or something and I don't feel the need to do that. I'll like to contribute to the KaM community in a good way using my own skills/interests like making maps, make some shoutcasts, help organize a tournament, etc.

You have indeed contributed a lot to the community which we greatly appreciate. And no, you are not the kind of person who likes to insult or "troll", I certainly wasn't referring to you when I said that.

Unrelated, but it's amazing how you guys have done precisely what I thought I always wanted with my oldtime favorite game KAM, but unfortunately lacked the skills to do so. And now, with shield buff and all, you're actually even improving it further, carefully sorting out what feedback to incoprorate, and what to ignore. Really, those are some amazing skills for any positions of leadership and management. Thanks. Playing KAM now is like one huuuuge orgy, one that I had always dreamed about.

Thanks for the compliments

Ofcourse, competition is where it's all about in multiplayer. it's just that if you can survive on fish alone we get absurd rushes right after pt and I thought you guys wanted some restrictions on such rushes.

Longer PT might make it harder to rush or survive solely on fish. In the next release you will be able to choose the game speed for multiplayer so even 80 minutes PT is only 40 minutes at 2x speed (you can select the speed for PT and after PT so you can fight at normal speed). As far as I can see most of the balance testing being done is using 60 minutes PT, maybe with more PT time you can have more interesting games? Some maps may have too much fish which means you can survive for a long time on only fish, although using only one resource means you usually need multiple inns to avoid traffic jams so it's a trade off.

Something I'm curious about, a lot of the balance complaints are about two things:
1. Offensive strategies being overpowered (rushing, minimal food production, trying to defeat the enemy as soon at PT ends)
2. Defensive strategies being overpowered (towers hit too much, blocking entrances with buildings is annoying)

Surely a good counter to a rush would be a strong economy and lots of defence (towers/blocking), so you can stop the rusher's initial attack with your towers and then build up your army while his weak economy dies as it runs out of food. Of course builder rush means towers aren't so useful at the moment so it's hard to tell.

[FeyBart]

(...)
2. Defensive strategies being overpowered (towers hit too much, blocking entrances with buildings is annoying)
(...)

I hear that entry blocking a lot, but wasn't it so that you can never build something without leaving one square of space on all sides? Why is that not for entries?

[Siegfried]

These kinds of comments makes me feel tired of working on the KaM Remake. It was more fun when the community had more praise and less trolls/complaints/demands/general attitude of "we play the game more so we know best, just do what we say because we're pros and you're just noobs who program the game for us".

Oh boy, I could not agree more. This increasing attitude made me take a hiatus and retreat from online play for some months (except some games under an unknown nick). It just was not fun anymore. And I can't appreciate it enough that Lewin and especially Krom with his AI are still working on singleplayer. THANK YOU SO MUCH!

@Leeuwgie: this is not aimed at you, it's aimed at the whole 'core community'. You need to realize that in the end it's not convincibility or even logic that will prove your points. It does not work that way. In the end it's the developers who decide what to do or not. If they like something, they'll do it. We can't force them. So we need to learn to accept. Accept both that there are different oppinions and that in the end we have nothing to decide. They ask for our opinions, but that's the whole story. We're here to point things out, not to decide on them.

The developers like a diversity of tactics, so there won't be one "way it's meant to be played". I like that. Probably that's the reason why I did not complete move away from that game.

Bye.

Siegfried

[pawel95]

Well idd what Lewin said and I have said also sometimes. It is so hard to play for some players more than this normal 60 min PT, but it will be really nice when you can choose faster gamespeed, so maybe they won´t cry when they are playing in reality only 40 min

Lewin,do you know when we could maybe start testing it. Will it take longer time or in the next weeks?



pawel95

[thunder]

Hi!

Something I'm curious about, a lot of the balance complaints are about two things:
1. Offensive strategies being overpowered (rushing, minimal food production, trying to defeat the enemy as soon at PT ends)
2. Defensive strategies being overpowered (towers hit too much, blocking entrances with buildings is annoying)

My experiences, and how i m seeing after some testgames:

1st is overpowered if the enemy player has average army and dont have the 2nd point.
2nd is overpowered if the enemy player has average army and dont have 1st point.

1st vs 2nd seems equal match.
1st+2nd are together maybe more powered option(rush,minimalfoodprod,trying to defeat the enemy as soon as, mass towerspam...).

Some players adhere PT60, and some players adhere the playstyle(full economy, large base, build every kind of possibilities in PT+10mins...).
1st is hard too beat with classical/oldschool/Full economic style, because the calssical start still need some minutes after the PT to make bigger army, but then sometimes too late...

Maybe needly to analize some other kind of type cities too for the exactly results.


If i were a good player then i dont be afraid of Fishabusing, Rushes (with bread, leather), anykind of market...
All style has somekind of problem/-s, what is growing huger in the time, and what is good for the Classical strat.
Fishabusing-fishes just nonrenewable...so need to change food for bread, vine etc...
Rush- no mass leather units, and only easydie milities...Full economy is just making fluently leather unit 10minutes after PT
Market- i dont know exactly what is the destiny of the market, but always have a little gate. when it was good in the early game was bad. when it is good in the late game bad(?). i Think this version's of the market is brilliant now in for the late game after coal, iron, gold, mines empty. Market is rarely in PT! not part of the basic strats.


Tower's hitpoint just wow...sometimes 3stones can kill one militi but sometimes 5 stones kill 5 knights...

'Good days and bad days';)

And what about abuse EVERYTHING??? when make everything and not enough units afterPT