Balance testing release r4297

[Lewin]

I think someone wrote about this(maybe Mully), that trade trunks for horses is really too easy(after pt you can even have 15-20 horses or more). Will you change it?

There's nothing actually wrong with making that many horses through the market, as long as you can make more with farms + stables and a similar number of buildings. We've made some changes that affect the result: Wheat is now more efficient with shared fields, the market trade loss ratio has been increased to 2.2, and the value of tree trunks has been decreased slightly. I just ran a test map and got this result:
4 farms (with unsown fields) + 2 stables beats 6 woodcutters (with 5 grown trees each) + 1 market in horse production by 16% (20 mins), 30% (30 mins), 45% (40 mins), 77% (60 mins)

That sounds quite well balanced to me, the market works in the short term (because you have trees ready to be cut down) but once the farms get into action they're much faster. 4 farms appear to supply 2 stables with the perfect amount of corn, they never run out and there's never excess.

[Da Revolution]

I think that the market values at the moment are just fine. No one is really using it in such a way that it's better than without market. It gives a lot of diversity now, making stuff more expensive could take this away again. Concerning trunks trade, I really like 1 trunk => 1 ore/coal, it is really effective late game to keep your gold production running.

[Ben]

I agree with Revolution. The market seems very balanced now. Players like Revolution and Matt are very powerful, and they don't use the market much before lategame. We also have players like Disco and Pizza who spam units by use of the market.

I also think that the game is almost perfectly balanced. I'd like to see more lance-carriers and pikemen in the game. I suppose that this could be done by
1) making knights a little stronger
2) increasing the bonus against cavalry for lance-carriers, pikemen and (perhaps not-so-necessary) rebels
or
3) both 1 and 2

Of course, this would need testing. Lots of it.

[The Dark Lord]

Uhm no thanks, option 2 will make cavalry useless again. And I don't think they require another bonus. Just make more cavalry, then I will make more pikes. Problem solved?

[pawel95]

Uhm no thanks, option 2 will make cavalry useless again. And I don't think they require another bonus. Just make more cavalry, then I will make more pikes. Problem solved?

Yeah thats exact my opinion too. Most of the players in Test release only try to make mass axes/swords + xbows/bowmen, nothing more

[Da Revolution]

Pawel we rarely play a game without someone that makes horses

[Leeuwgie]

It's true, if nobody makes horses atleast revo here will train some.

[dicsoupcan]

fu also makes horses often, and even i trade for 1 or 2 horses. Mulberry makes horses and other players, but i am too lazy to name them all.

[Ben]

Uhm no thanks, option 2 will make cavalry useless again. And I don't think they require another bonus. Just make more cavalry, then I will make more pikes. Problem solved?

Somewhere else on the forum, Dark Lord, you mentioned something about decreasing/ increasing the stats of sword-fighters a little, and you got the same response that you just gave me. The increase could be very small, but still noticeable. However, I don't really like this anyway. I think that option 1 sounds better. If knights were stronger, than their counter (lances and pikes) would be more important. It is nearly impossible even for expert knight-players like Pizza to field more 30 knights without sacrificing every other unit (60 PT). Knights are powerful (and 30 is amazing!), but with just 30 running around the map, I'd feel more comfortable making more sword-fighters to counter ranged as apposed to pikemen to counter knights. In fact, I can just imagine someone making a mere 10 pikes and that would be more than enough if ranged help back them up.

However, as I'm writing this, I'm wondering if the absence of pikemen is a problem. I mean, if axes and swords are the main force, with a few pikes and horses backing them up, maybe this is just fine. Still, I feel that pikemen and lance-carriers are left out a lot (with the exception of Pizza's commander! )

Keep in mind that I've only been playing on the TS balance games for a week now, so take my opinions for what they are worth: I've still much to learn, so please be gentle with me

[Siegfried]

My summary is the following. It is a summary of playing many games with the 'average' user of KaM, not the self-proclaimed 1337 that you find in certain locations.

The changes made in the RC had one effect, that nobody considered before: the improved gameplay tactics spilled over to r4179. So you find quite some players producing mass milita, some go for pikeman and some stay with lances. You just don't find axemen because usually people go for scouts then immeadiately. It totally depends on the map and on the players.

So the +1 def was a very nice idea to bring people to develop new tactics. But there is no need to implement it into the final release. Even if the balance is not considered perfect in this forum, you find so many tactics out there, that it's real fun to play nowadays. Keep it that way! Trash the changes.

[sado1]

My summary is the following. It is a summary of playing many games with the 'average' user of KaM, not the self-proclaimed 1337 that you find in certain locations.

The changes made in the RC had one effect, that nobody considered before: the improved gameplay tactics spilled over to r4179. So you find quite some players producing mass militia, some go for pikeman and some stay with lances. You just don't find axemen because usually people go for scouts then immeadiately. It totally depends on the map and on the players.

So the +1 def was a very nice idea to bring people to develop new tactics. But there is no need to implement it into the final release. Even if the balance is not considered perfect in this forum, you find so many tactics out there, that it's real fun to play nowadays. Keep it that way! Trash the changes.

So... you want to leave unit values from current version (r4179), because the "+1 defence against shooters" for shielded units is not needed? You really should play a few RC games... it's so much better. This change provided some much needed positive effects, like changing the default unit to a one which is harder to make, making horses very valuable again, also (but not exactly related) bowmen are really useful now, not just meat for xbows... Every single game something different happens, players keep changing strategies, and I really doubt that it's because of placebo effect (as you seem to suggest). The best thing is, it all really feels balanced, and all kinds of units are being used in every game. I think you're really missing the whole fun if you won't give the RC version a chance. Aside from the "1337 player" TS group, there's lots of new players in RC (usually Polish... Mixons' 1v1 Polish tournament was played on RC, so credits to him for making it more popular ), so it's not hard to find a game there nowadays.

About lancers/pikemen being left out - well, it's still better than it was before. In current version, the units left out were all kinds of shielded units (including horses, well they were more useful than axemen/swordmen but rare to see). Now, the units left out are scouts and lancers. It's still way better than it was. Pikemen are not exactly left out - even if everyone usually makes swordmen, pikemen are still useful, for example when:
-countering knights
-tactics like Pizza's, where you want as much bows as possible, so you don't have time for huge iron production
etc. I am of an opinion, that lance/pikemen are supposed to be a support unit, not the main force in the game, so I totally support the change.

[Jeronimo]

I approve the lastest military balance.
I even approve 2.0 market value (tough due some opinions, it will be rised to 2.2 value).

The RC version is preety fine from my point of view.
Also waiting for the dynamic group ordering and other announced improvements.

[Da Revolution]

Siegfried i advise you watching To´s latest shoutcast. Watch the base he shows from me, axefighters. Also where did you base your opinion on? You prefer mass lancers + xbows or do you prefer more variation in tactics? Have you played a game with the new balance before you wrote that post?

[Siegfried]

Siegfried i advise you watching To´s latest shoutcast. Watch the base he shows from me, axefighters.

I did, of course. He shows base building. Nothing of this is hindered by the fighting mechanism.

Also where did you base your opinion on?

From playing the game? Where do you base your opinion on? That's a bit of a weird question, don't you think?

You prefer mass lancers + xbows or do you prefer more variation in tactics?

If you mean my general liking: I prefer the variation, and that's what I get in the official release right now.
If you mean my specific gameplay: I go for scout+xbow with militia-aid whenever possible (i.e. when marketplace is available). So the fighting change would indeed make my strategy even more powerful.

Have you played a game with the new balance before you wrote that post?

Yapp. Have you played a game with foreign people out there in the official release before that post?

[Da Revolution]

I did, of course. He shows base building. Nothing of this is hindered by the fighting mechanism.

So you saw the variety of units being used in the test release. Archers for example are useful again.

If you mean my general liking: I prefer the variation, and that's what I get in the official release right now.
If you mean my specific gameplay: I go for scout+xbow with militia-aid whenever possible (i.e. when marketplace is available). So the fighting change would indeed make my strategy even more powerful.

Yapp. Have you played a game with foreign people out there in the official release before that post?

Yes I did play quite a few games in the old release and you know I really don't see the variation you see.
- Xbows? Everyone got those because without them you have no chance.
- Scouts? Useless in the old release because people love pikes/lancers. They won't be a good choice either next release.
- Swords? Making those in old release is a waste of your iron, why not make pikes since they only have less attack there.
- Axefighters? Same story as swords.
- Archers? No need making them, they won't hurt anyone.

I can give my opinion on every unit type this way, but really you only got a few unit types that are useful in r4179. In the old release the best way to play is lancers + xbows, if you do this well you'll win every game. You probably base your opinion of r4279 on the amount of rushes you saw, because you mentioned that mass militia is important.

About your unit combo, it will die quite quick next release.