Balance testing release r4297

[Lewin]

Hi everyone,
For a few months we've been planning to make a "balance testing release" where we can test out some ideas to improve the balance of the game (specifically multiplayer since singleplayer balance can mostly be adjusted other ways). This topic will outline the experimental changes made and allow you to provide us with feedback regarding the changes. We are using the same mailing list as we do for the release candidates (betas), but if you are not on that list and you want to participate in the balance testing please send your email address to contact@kamremake.com.

This release is based on r4179 with minimal changes, so you won't see any new features and (hopefully) no new bugs. This release is all about balance.

Server admins: If you could host a server in this release we would really appreciate it! Hopefully once we have a server running there will be enough people playing this release to do some serious testing.

If you participate in this balance testing please give us your feedback, preferably through the forum (email is ok if forums are not your thing, but we prefer the forum so other users can comment on your feedback). Krom and I are only able to play a limited number of games so we really need your help in judging the success or failure of these changes. Please write considered answers, not just speculation. As always everybody is welcome to his own opinion, personal attacks/insults will not be tolerated.

NOTE: The changes made in this patch are NOT final, this is simply an experiment to see whether the changes improve the game. Some of the changes may need to be tweaked or may not be used at all.

Issues addressed in this patch
Shields bonus
We have made units with shield (including knights/scouts) have +1 defence against bowmen/crossbowmen. Axemen/swordsmen are currently not used much because lancemen/pikemen are much cheaper and still good as a "meatshield" for archers. Knights/scouts are not used often because of high price (horses are slow).

Bowmen aiming delay
We have reduced the aiming delay for bowmen. Previously it was 0.8-1.6 seconds (same as crossbowmen), now it's 0.4-0.8 seconds. Currently bowmen are rarely used, crossbowmen are so much better.

Market loss
We have reduced the market loss ratio from 2.5 to 2.0. This means when you trade, 50% of the resources you put in are kept as a "tax" by the merchants, the other 50% buy the resources you asked for. Previously these values were 60% tax and 40% for trading. Now that the prices more accurately reflect the value of resources (all trades are about equally unappealing) we think we can reduce the amount of goods lost in trading without making the market overused.
Note: Due to rounding some trade rates might be unchanged and others might change dramatically. If you see anything which doesn't look balanced write about it here.


Issues NOT addressed in this patch (but hopefully addressed soon)
Storm attack
Storm attack is not practical, especially in MP with lag delays. We have ideas to make storm attack last longer and be easier to aim (tell them where to storm to, rather than clicking button at the right moment which is not possible with MP lag)

Chasing archers
Killing fleeing bowmen/crossbowmen is hard, even with knights, as they keep going away from the hits unless you flank/surround them. After warrior/group refactoring we can make attack orders be followed through if the enemy steps away so they are pursued (within a few tiles)

[Lewin]

No feedback yet? According to our map statistics there's been quite a few games played in this release. I'd be interested to hear whether these changes have improved things (all units being used including axefighters/swordsmen?), and what the new balance issues are in this release (maybe these changes have broken some other stuff?). I can come on TeamSpeak some time if you'd rather discuss it there. I haven't had time to play any more games myself.

Or is everybody just scared of starting a balance flame war and doesn't want to post here?

In other news we've fixed two issues relating to balance:
1. Chasing archers is now much easier. If you give an order to attack an enemy your soldiers will keep chasing that group when it steps out of range or you give them another order.
2. Pressing halt after each shot no longer allows you to increase your archers rate of fire by skipping the reload phase (now archers must finish reloading before they can do anything else)

[Bo_]

Hello, we've talked a lot about the changes on ts, so yes it would be great if you joined us sometimes.
For now we all like them, but we also agree that we need way more testing before we could actually give some useful feedback.
With that I mean that saying 'I like it' isn't very constructive.
So that's probably why nobody gave any comments yet.
There will probably be some more reactions in a week or 2.

[Bence791]

So far it seems like +1 defense against arrows is "too much". Could you modify it to 0,5 maybe? And lancers aren't used many times since axemen have the resistance against arrows like they were iron-armored. Horses are used again, that's a good thing btw. And yeah, no more balance flame wars would be needed.

[dicsoupcan]

I am just posting my first impressions here, i might change it later. Yes the added defense against arrows is very good. right now every unit has it's own role in this release. the axefighters and swordsmen are the main melee core since they are he best non mounted melee now, the lansers and pikemen are serving only as anti cavalry and cavalry us mainly used to absord enemy ranged fire and flank enemies quickly. i think this is a good development, there is certainly more variety in unit combinations now. as for the archers, they are better against non shielded units now, but they are still a bit weak because the increased fire rate is not a match against the +1 range defense shielded units have now. they may be good when you make a lot of them but i haven't done that yet.

and like bo said, it is usefull if you could discuss it on teamspeak, if you have time offcourse. This will probably speed up the feedback.

2. Pressing halt after each shot no longer allows you to increase your archers rate of fire by skipping the reload phase (now archers must finish reloading before they can do anything else)

does this also mean that when the enemy comes to you, you let your ranged units fire once you cannot let them retreat untill they finished reloading?

[Lewin]

Thanks for the feedback guys
It sounds pretty good so far. It would be possible to make the defence bonus 0.5 or something if necessary, but IMO that should only be done if lance carrier/pikemen become seriously under used. We are aiming to get all units used in the game, with axefighters/sword fighters forming the "core melee" in most cases (maybe there's some special tactics like lancer/militia spam that are viable too, that would be a good thing)

does this also mean that when the enemy comes to you, you let your ranged units fire once you cannot let them retreat untill they finished reloading?

That is correct, unless you order them before they release their arrow. Basically if they have fired an arrow they have to put a new one on their bow before they can do anything else like walk somewhere. This will kind of change the way archer vs archer face-offs happen, it will need to be tested to see if it is a problem. To be honest I think it makes it more fair because you can't take one step forward, fire arrows then take a step back before the enemy has a chance to fire back. There's now a pause which is long enough for the enemy's arrows to hit you. I've never liked archer vs archer face-offs because a lot depends on chance and getting your timing exactly right (which is kind of random with network lag), and I think this will make them happen less often. We'll see how it goes when it is tested.
EDIT: Another interesting fact of this change is that because bowmen take a bit less time to reload than crossbowmen (this has always been the case), bowmen can be moved sooner after firing their arrow. This could be a good thing IMO, crossbowmen are slow but strong, bowmen are fast but weak.

I'm going away over Christmas so I might not be around so much or have time to go on TeamSpeak.

[The Dark Lord]

I disagree with Bence.
I haven't played that much games yet but this is what I think at the moment (and that might still change as I play more games): +1 defence makes axe fighters and sword fighters important again. I do not think they are overpowered as Bence suggested, because this is neutralized by the buff archers received. Lance carriers are less useful now, I'm still a bit undecided about this, but I guess it's okay because people will use more cavalry as well so the lance carrier will still remain useful (or at least that's what I hope).

[Bo_]

I also disagree, 1 armor is fine to me, and I think archers are good, but not against everything.
Their fast shooting makes them better against militia or a builder rush, or just destroying towers than xbow,
while xbow are way more useful against iron soldiers.
About lancecariers, it's true that lance carriers only against knights won't do the job, wich is good.
I think it's best to have something like 50 50 lance/pike, since pike only is too expensive and lance only too weak.
Completing pike with lances gives you a nice amount wich can easily counter knights.
Anyway if pike/lance would really appear to be useless then I would suggest +1 armor for pike/lances against pony attack or -1 armor for ponies against pike/lances.
Then about pause time, I think it would be better to make them to load before they shoot, isn't that more logic?
Like this their wouldn't be shoot back shoot back, wich would fix it. But just imagine in real life: You see an enemy soldier rushing into you, but you won't move before you reloaded.

[Romek]

Imo now everything is as it should be. Lances are no longer used as a main mellee units. Their job now is to protect your forces (in most of the time xbows) from back and from sides.

[EDMatt]

I also agree that lancers are good now, Also archers are just right. shoot and hault should be fixed , but shoot and back should never be removed from the game, imagine if xbow go back and start shooting horse, and you must quickly retreat but cant because xbow are shooting at the horse, I can see so many wrong things with this, but again , its just my opinion.

[Lewin]

Well if you are able to step forwards, immediately shoot, then step back immediately after the shot and be ready to fire again, then the halting exploit is not fixed since instead of stepping back at the end you could step to the same tile (that's basically all halt does) and thus skip the reload phase. We need to force the reload step to happen at some point otherwise it can be skipped by halting. I guess we could keep track of whether the archer has reloaded (if you interrupted him while he was loading he'll have to reload before his next shot) but IMO that would feel strange and inconsistent since the next time they fire could be in 5 minutes.

We could also maybe make archers ALWAYS reload before shooting (move reloading to the start of the animation) but that means archers are very slow to make their first shot since it would be: 1. reload, 2. aim, 3. fire, so if the enemy was rushing at you there would be a massive pause before the first arrow was released, which I don't like the sound of. I like archers being able to release the first arrow quite quickly (aim, fire). It also makes sense that as a bowmen you would keep an arrow on your bow string if there were enemies about (and I guess you would keep a crossbow drawn back and ready to fire right before a battle).

Of course I'm open to hearing other suggestions for how to fix the halting exploit if you have any.

Why is shoot and immediately step back so important? I always found it a bit annoying since if you timed it right you could kill enemy archers without losing any of your own (1. step forward, 2. fire, 3. step back before enemy arrows land) which means you really must watch your troops non-stop in case the enemy sets himself up to do this. If they need to reload after each shot then you can't do it without taking losses, so you'll need a much bigger group of archers than the enemy to beat him. I guess it could be annoying if the enemy rushes your crossbowmen with his knights and they take a moment before following your order to run while they are reloading, but I think that needs testing. Also if you order them before they shoot (while they are aiming) they will respond immediately, so if you catch them in time they won't have to reload before moving (rewards quick responses from the player?). Another thought: Maybe archers SHOULD be less manoeuvrable and need better guarding? I mean that it could have a positive impact on balance by making it necessary to have more melee guarding your crossbowmen spam. This change would certainly encourage that since it would be harder to run behind your tower line before the enemy reaches you. But then again maybe archers being non-responsive for a moment after each shot would make the game feel unresponsive, even though it's only for about 0.5 seconds on average while they reload (it doesn't feel like a big problem in singleplayer, but I haven't tested it in multiplayer).

[EDMatt]

Taking away shoot and back will ruin alot of the "micro management of troops" factor , it will make the game less interesting as you have to pay less attention to troops this way, infact the best way to counter someone stepping forward and going back is by shooting arrows (as you will shoot faster because the opponent is tepping forward) and just as the opponent starts shooting (as he took his step forward) you must move 1 step forward, by the time you made this move , your arrows land and hit the enemy, the enemy has less chance of hitting because you move forward and as you stop you are about to shoot another set of arrows, the opponent cannot escape as he would need to step 2 tiles to get out of the range of the range units, really I dont see any problems with shooting and going back or going forward and shooting, there is alot of ways to counter this and one is not by putting melee on front line like most do, infact the best way to set up a frontline is to have range units in front, this will completely secure your possition.

[EDMatt]

Also let me stress that there is a very high chance that you would lose units and the opponent stepping back just as you moved forward leaving you with no kills while the opponent grabbed a few of your range.
There is a greater risk in moving forward and shooting then shooting and moving back, and it should be that way IMO as it is called map control . the best way to gain control is by pushing opponents with horse and securing it with xbow. now you have a frontline that is secured for sure and you will ALWAYS be the first one to shoot no matter what.

[Romek]

Matt is right. Its actually the one thing what we can do with our xbows.

[Lewin]

I see, good arguments. Do you have a suggestion for another way to fix the halting exploit?