Map Database  •  FAQ  •  RSS  •  Login

Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

<<

Ben

User avatar

Former Site Admin

Posts: 3814

Joined: 08 Jan 2009, 23:00

Location: California - Pacific Time (UTC -8/-7 Summer Time)

Post 04 Dec 2012, 17:46

Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

I was doing some research on KaM the other day, and I found something quite interesting. This entire topic is under the assumption that the stat differences between soldiers is the same in the Remake as it was in KaM (although how damage is calculated is different, I believe). If it is different then forget it :P

Okay, I'll start off with this: Mostly, the attack margin between primitive units and iron units isn't very large, numerically speaking. E.g. Militia, Scouts, and Axefighters all have 35% attack, whereas Swordfighters and Knights have 55% attack. Lance carriers have 25% attack and Pikemen have 35% attack.
However, this ends when you reach bowmen and crossbowmen. Bowmen have 35% attack, but crossbowmen have 100% attack! The margin of difference is huge! Much more than twice that of the difference between axes and swords. I was wondering if this really makes sense. It would be a good explanation as to why crossbowmen are favored so much.

So what do you people think of this?
I used to spam this forum so much...
<<

Bo_

User avatar

Knight

Posts: 538

Joined: 26 Apr 2012, 17:18

KaM Skill Level: Beginner

Location: Belgium

Post 04 Dec 2012, 18:07

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

I think Uncle Ben is right. ;)
Kick fast, think Bo.
<<

pawel95

Castle Guard Swordsman

Posts: 1912

Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 22:00

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Location: "Pawel95" on Youtube.com

Post 04 Dec 2012, 18:08

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

Well i dont understand it reall either.

Swordmen are more expensive like xbows but xbows are the powerfullst army.(well not directly, Xbows hasnt chance against same knights, but in the background of the fight, i mean :D :D )

However maybe its like in reality. If they are standing 50 xbows AND THEY WILL SHOT CORRECTLY, the soldiers are normaly death, but if it is really this argumente it also doesnt make sense,because bowmen are too weak than.

And i think that Ben is right, that this is the main reason,why in multiplayer they arent "normal" fights like in real, but only xbows(and lances/pikes) Normaly.


And what Pike has the same attack like axefighters? "Swrodtroops" haven´t any bonus for pikes/lances/rebells, have they?

Ben, can you tell me, howmuch Attack has a Barbarian?


pawel95
<<

Ben

User avatar

Former Site Admin

Posts: 3814

Joined: 08 Jan 2009, 23:00

Location: California - Pacific Time (UTC -8/-7 Summer Time)

Post 04 Dec 2012, 18:11

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

And i think that Ben is right, that this is the main reason,why in multiplayer they arent "normal" fights like in real, but only xbows(and lances/pikes) Normaly.
This is my suspicion. Better to spend all your iron on crossbowmen since they are so much better than all other units.
Ben, can you tell me, howmuch Attack has a Barbarian?
Sadly, the TSK manual doesn't include barbarians :/ However, it is clear that they have more than knights, as they have 4 swords on their icon, whereas knights and swordfighters only have 3.
Lewin or Krom could tell you how much attack they have in the Remake.
I used to spam this forum so much...
<<

pawel95

Castle Guard Swordsman

Posts: 1912

Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 22:00

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Location: "Pawel95" on Youtube.com

Post 04 Dec 2012, 18:18

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

Ahh ok maybe because they were the Mystic Army only in TSK 8 and TSK9 (+Tsk20) i love them :D
Well, i only ask because i read somewhere that they are the most powefull army BUT are really weak against xbows and archers. So we could compare also this 2 types. Maybe the xbows are so powerfull,that barbarians are much weaker than in TSK/TPR. Its only sometimes my feeling in multiplayer battle,that the barbarians are weaker than in TPR
(so not they themselves are weaker, but because of balance from xbows)


pawel95
<<

Ben

User avatar

Former Site Admin

Posts: 3814

Joined: 08 Jan 2009, 23:00

Location: California - Pacific Time (UTC -8/-7 Summer Time)

Post 04 Dec 2012, 18:20

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

I think barbarians have less attack than crossbowmen. They have the most attack of any infantry unit; though.
I think that they were given armor in TPR, making them a little more effective against arrows.
I used to spam this forum so much...
<<

Bence791

Knight

Posts: 618

Joined: 20 Jul 2012, 20:25

KaM Skill Level: Beginner

Location: Hungary

Post 04 Dec 2012, 19:52

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

Bowmen's attack rate: 60
Xbowmen's attack rate: 120
Barbarians / Warriors' attack rate: 75

Since Warriors and Barbarians both have 4 hp and 2 defense, so I think they aren't that weak against arrows. Maybe they seem to be in TPR, but there (as you surely know) archers are alive supermen. :D Hm, bowmen amazed me some day before. I was playing mission7 of Ben's campaign, where my bowmen killed a knight with 8 arrows. :P And a single archer killed a pike with 3 arrows. So forget about TPR if you are thinking of improvements for the Remake.
The Kamper is always taking my colour!

<<

Ben

User avatar

Former Site Admin

Posts: 3814

Joined: 08 Jan 2009, 23:00

Location: California - Pacific Time (UTC -8/-7 Summer Time)

Post 04 Dec 2012, 19:55

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

Still playing my campaign? :)

So the stats are different? I thought that the hit rate and hp were the only things changed.
I used to spam this forum so much...
<<

Lewin

User avatar

KaM Remake Developer

Posts: 3822

Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 22:00

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

ICQ: 269127056

Website: http://lewin.hodgman.id.au

Yahoo Messenger: lewinlewinhodgman

Location: Australia

Post 05 Dec 2012, 05:59

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

We haven't changed any unit statistics in the Remake, they are the same as TPR. Archers are not the same because nobody knows how the fighting system worked with archers, and we added predictive aiming so we made up our own system for archers.

The stats in the manual and on Wikipedia don't reflect what goes on in the code. In the code attack strength is like Bence wrote (note that they are not percentages either and they are allowed to go over 100). You can't really compare the attack strength of archers to other units because arrows have a chance to miss which is separate to the attack strength (they are more likely to miss moving targets too).

We're planning to give archers some small buff to make them more useful. It could be attack strength or rate of fire or something like that.
<<

vovets1

User avatar

Sword Fighter

Posts: 357

Joined: 20 May 2012, 08:59

KaM Skill Level: Veteran

Location: Russia

Post 05 Dec 2012, 11:09

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

Archers instead of 35% make 50% please =) Then they will have meaning.
<<

Lewin

User avatar

KaM Remake Developer

Posts: 3822

Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 22:00

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

ICQ: 269127056

Website: http://lewin.hodgman.id.au

Yahoo Messenger: lewinlewinhodgman

Location: Australia

Post 05 Dec 2012, 12:00

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

Archers instead of 35% make 50% please =) Then they will have meaning.
There are no percentages in the attack strengths, they are just numbers. Also bowmen currently have attack 60, crossbowmen have attack 120.
<<

Bence791

Knight

Posts: 618

Joined: 20 Jul 2012, 20:25

KaM Skill Level: Beginner

Location: Hungary

Post 05 Dec 2012, 14:27

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

To make it clear.. As Lewin told me some day:

There is an attack rate of each troop, e.g. xbowmen's is 120. To calculate the chance of damage (if the arrow hits the target, or if melee combat is going on):
Attack rate / Target's defense, e.g. if a xbow shoots at a militia, it's: 120 / 1 = 120% of damaging, but the arrows can miss, so it isn't that percentage. (Best is Rogue vs Xbow, there IS 120% chance of damaging, and in that case even chance of killing, so it's sure :P)
Another example: A Barbarian fights a Knight.
Barbarians have an attack rate of 75, and a defense of 2, Knights have an attack rate of 55, and 3 defense. So:
Chance of a Barb damaging a Knight: 75/3=25%
Chance of a Knight damaging a Barb: 55/2=22,5% (It's really random who wins 1 on 1, and there you can see the point that barbs are really op :D)

Anyway I'm not an expert at it, so better ask the devs :P

P.S.: Yeah Ben, I'm stuck at mission10, this attack at 0:33 is a bit fast.. :D I'll have to try it again later.
The Kamper is always taking my colour!

<<

Bo_

User avatar

Knight

Posts: 538

Joined: 26 Apr 2012, 17:18

KaM Skill Level: Beginner

Location: Belgium

Post 05 Dec 2012, 15:22

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

Maybe I'm wrong but wasn't the attack rate the frequency of the attack?
Kick fast, think Bo.
<<

Ben

User avatar

Former Site Admin

Posts: 3814

Joined: 08 Jan 2009, 23:00

Location: California - Pacific Time (UTC -8/-7 Summer Time)

Post 05 Dec 2012, 15:32

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

I used percentage because that's what the TSK manual uses.

Anyway, I wasn't really comparing bowmen and crossbowmen to other troops. I was stating how crossbowmen are about 3 times stronger than bowmen, while swordfighters are only almost twice as good a axefighters.
I used to spam this forum so much...
<<

Bence791

Knight

Posts: 618

Joined: 20 Jul 2012, 20:25

KaM Skill Level: Beginner

Location: Hungary

Post 05 Dec 2012, 16:05

Re: Concerning the Upgrade to Iron Units

Maybe I'm wrong but wasn't the attack rate the frequency of the attack?
Yes, you are, since every troop strikes at the same speed (I mean melee) ;)

P.S.: As I know xD
The Kamper is always taking my colour!


Return to “Feedback / Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests