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Planned market changes

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Mulberry

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 11:38

Re: Planned market changes

Lewin, i am not over reacting, time is very much important. 7-10 mins of disadvantage on Golden cliffs (loc 1,2 maybe 4), Across the Desert (loc 1,3) costs you 30-40 soldiers. I wouldnt like if i have 70 troops and my enemie have only 40. I wont start a game knowing this.

WHat about wilderness on wich we still cant solve all balance issues? Even with current courses player on location 4 suffering.
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Lewin

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KaM Remake Developer

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 11:44

Re: Planned market changes

Mulberry wrote:Lewin, i am not over reacting, time is very much important. 7-10 mins of disadvantage on Golden cliffs (loc 1,2 maybe 4), Across the Desert (loc 1,3) costs you 30-40 soldiers. I wouldnt like if i have 70 troops and my enemie have only 40. I wont start a game knowing this.

I agree that 7-10 minutes is very important, but why do some players have a 7-10 minute disadvantage? Why does the market fix this? I don't understand.
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Krom

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Knights Province Developer

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 11:48

Re: Planned market changes

@Mulberry: Market was never intended to be "the great symmetrizer" of maps, and it never was. We are just making sure that trade costs are equally bad so that Market does not replace intended production houses (Woodcutters, Stables, etc) )
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
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Mulberry

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 11:50

Re: Planned market changes

Because the only thing by wich you can rely on this locations for building a city as fast as players on better locations is trading a tree truncks. The problem is space, grass, tiles, number of trees, lenth of location. I thought about this before and it is just imposible to fix some locations. They will absolutly loose their look and individuality!

I think you're over reacting a bit. Maybe some maps need a few more trees at certain locations to be better balanced, that's easy to fix. But I really don't see why this change has anything to do with mirrored maps.

Adding trees? You will also need to add lots of space :) How are you going to do it? With moving all resources and objects?
Last edited by Mulberry on 07 Nov 2012, 11:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Krom

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 11:52

Re: Planned market changes

I recall some maps were specifically designed to be imbalanced to give some locs better access to resources vs. other locs being easier to defend. Once again, that has little to do with Market intent.
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
KaM Remake at: http://www.kamremake.com
Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
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Mulberry

Pikeman

Posts: 185

Joined: 18 Apr 2012, 19:14

Post 07 Nov 2012, 11:56

Re: Planned market changes

Krom wrote:I recall some maps were specifically designed to be imbalanced to give some locs better access to resources vs. other locs being easier to defend. Once again, that has little to do with Market intent.


It is pitty but marketplace were covering Remake balance problems at some point. Krom, imagine you have players in a lobby, 6 for example and for 2 of them you need to say: "sorry but you need to play on worst locations and feel yourself uncomfortable. Why? Because this map is just made to be uncomfortable! ". Ask koczis if he wants players to be dissadvantaged on certain locs! He didnt planned that. And up to this moment it was one of the most balancd maps. This is a reason of its popularity!
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Lewin

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:00

Re: Planned market changes

A lot of maps were designed before the market was being used so heavily. If there's problems with balance on some maps they need to be addressed separately. Locations that are worse need to be given more of an advantage. Extra space, more trees, better defence positions, less open, etc. Any of those things can balance a map. The market is not the right answer.

And what about adding more wood in the storehouse to some or all locations on a map? The possibilities for balance are endless. I really doubt that most maps are so unbalanced that some locations will make 30 extra troops most times. If so that's a big balance flaw with the map which can be fixed in a number of ways.
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The Dark Lord

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King Karolus Servant

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:03

Re: Planned market changes

Mulberry wrote:
I think you're over reacting a bit. Maybe some maps need a few more trees at certain locations to be better balanced, that's easy to fix. But I really don't see why this change has anything to do with mirrored maps.

Adding trees? You will also need to add lots of space :) How are you going to do it? With moving all resources and objects?


Yeah, playing without a market isn't that easy. ;)

And I think it is still possible to balance maps with imbalanced locations, e.g. putting stronger players on harder locations, make sure that every team has an equal amount of hard locations, etcetera.
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Mulberry

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:03

Re: Planned market changes

So find this "number of ways", use it! And then change marketplace values the way you want too. And if we will need to add 5 or 10 min of PT i will be really much dissapointed. Give us balanced maps first! And also i would like to see a list of methods by wihch you are gonna balance locations so people can respond on it.

The Dark Lord, I am a strong player. Am i? I dont want to play when i know that weaker player will make as much as i will. Its rediculous!
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Lewin

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:18

Re: Planned market changes

So you're saying the market is required as a balanced wood supply at the start of the game, since it ensures that all players get the same amount of wood if they all trade coal into trunks. Well why don't we just add an extra 50 or 100 wood to all locations? That's basically the same effect as the market (all players get more wood early in the game, in balanced amounts for everyone), except it saves you from building the coal mines and market, which means you can play with less PT.
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Kirelareus

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:19

Re: Planned market changes

The Dark Lord wrote:
Lewin wrote:We realise the market was useful for speeding up gameplay, and we might address these issues separately. If wood is slow to produce, that's a problem in itself, the market should not be the solution for such a problem.



About the values: it is better than I could have hoped! Victory! :P


Yeah! It's victory of players, who don't use market or rarely do it :P
R.A - power in unity!
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Mulberry

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Joined: 18 Apr 2012, 19:14

Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:24

Re: Planned market changes

Lewin wrote:So you're saying the market is required as a balanced wood supply at the start of the game, since it ensures that all players get the same amount of wood if they all trade coal into trunks. Well why don't we just add an extra 50 or 100 wood to all locations? That's basically the same effect as the market (all players get more wood early in the game, in balanced amounts for everyone), except it saves you from building the coal mines and market, which means you can play with less PT.


You really want people to spamm buildings? You will take all skill of managing timber by this move!

Lets manage then a list of unbalanced maps, list of ways to fix it. Then make changes, then test it. Then confirm it... and then change values to something like 5 times.
Last edited by Mulberry on 07 Nov 2012, 12:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Lewin

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KaM Remake Developer

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:26

Re: Planned market changes

Mulberry wrote:
Lewin wrote:So you're saying the market is required as a balanced wood supply at the start of the game, since it ensures that all players get the same amount of wood if they all trade coal into trunks. Well why don't we just add an extra 50 or 100 wood to all locations? That's basically the same effect as the market (all players get more wood early in the game, in balanced amounts for everyone), except it saves you from building the coal mines and market, which means you can play with less PT.


You really want people to spamm buildings? You will take all skill of managing timber by this move!

I would say the current market takes away all skills of managing timber since it's so fast and easy to produce. It's much more skilful to build your woodcutters at the right moment than to just spam your coal into wood whenever you feel like it.
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Mulberry

Pikeman

Posts: 185

Joined: 18 Apr 2012, 19:14

Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:29

Re: Planned market changes

Lewin wrote:
Mulberry wrote:
Lewin wrote:So you're saying the market is required as a balanced wood supply at the start of the game, since it ensures that all players get the same amount of wood if they all trade coal into trunks. Well why don't we just add an extra 50 or 100 wood to all locations? That's basically the same effect as the market (all players get more wood early in the game, in balanced amounts for everyone), except it saves you from building the coal mines and market, which means you can play with less PT.


You really want people to spamm buildings? You will take all skill of managing timber by this move!

I would say the current market takes away all skills of managing timber since it's so fast and easy to produce. It's much more skilful to build your woodcutters at the right moment than to just spam your coal into wood whenever you feel like it.


WHat is a right moment? :D It is start of a game. 10 woodcutters from start then farms and gold! Very skillfull build order. Try and test what are you suggesting and we will laught at it together.
Last edited by Mulberry on 07 Nov 2012, 12:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Kirelareus

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Sword Fighter

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Joined: 18 Dec 2011, 10:58

Location: Russia, St.Petersburg

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:29

Re: Planned market changes

Mulberry wrote:So find this "number of ways", use it! And then change marketplace values the way you want too. And if we will need to add 5 or 10 min of PT i will be really much dissapointed. Give us balanced maps first! And also i would like to see a list of methods by wihch you are gonna balance locations so people can respond on it.

The Dark Lord, I am a strong player. Am i? I dont want to play when i know that weaker player will make as much as i will. Its rediculous!


Do not make a fit. :P Pro (if you position yourself as pro) should be able to play without market :P
Or it's PROBLEM for YOU?)
R.A - power in unity!
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