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Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 30 Dec 2012, 23:31
by The Dark Lord
I wouldn't really mind because I never have a market before pt ends, but I don't really like the idea of restricting people from building certain buildings.

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 25 Feb 2013, 20:11
by Ben
Forgive me for kicking this topic, but I read somewhere on the forum that the market values will be changed so that trading will be harder, again. (i.e., it is going to be different from the balance testing release). Is this true?

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2013, 03:55
by Lewin
Forgive me for kicking this topic, but I read somewhere on the forum that the market values will be changed so that trading will be harder, again. (i.e., it is going to be different from the balance testing release). Is this true?
It's been increased slightly to 2.2 (was 2.0 in r4297, and 2.5 in r4179). We can always change it back during RC testing if market strategies become unusable. To be honest I quite liked the uses of the market that To showed in his most recent video.

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2013, 04:51
by Ben
Forgive me for kicking this topic, but I read somewhere on the forum that the market values will be changed so that trading will be harder, again. (i.e., it is going to be different from the balance testing release). Is this true?
It's been increased slightly to 2.2 (was 2.0 in r4297, and 2.5 in r4179). We can always change it back during RC testing if market strategies become unusable. To be honest I quite liked the uses of the market that To showed in his most recent video.
Me, too, Lewin. However, Dicsoupcan and Pizza have come up with an almost game-breaking way of abusing the marketplace. They nearly all of their food for corn, which they use to make early pigs and skins. They then have sausage and leather armor at an incredibly early time. This strategy is excellent for rushing and also doesn't sacrifice much for end-game since sausages are being produced at such an early time. This strategy is nowhere near possible without the marketplace. From what this (me) noob sees, if enough players start using this, everyone will be forced to use it in order to survive.

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2013, 05:34
by Lewin
All of these rushing strategies that are often called "market abuse" won't work so well with longer peacetime. In the new release maybe people will use a slightly faster game speed and longer peacetime, meaning that rushing won't work so well.

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2013, 05:53
by Ben
Sounds promising. I'm excited to see how it goes. Perhaps we can release an update to the balance testing to try this (and everything else that has changed), or would that be too much effort for too little gain?

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2013, 19:01
by `Maurice
All of these rushing strategies that are often called "market abuse" won't work so well with longer peacetime. In the new release maybe people will use a slightly faster game speed and longer peacetime, meaning that rushing won't work so well.
Forgive me if this has been posted somewhere already, but when will the new version be released?

On topic:

I'm looking forward to the changes with the market.

I don't mind people using the market, but like Ben said, when people are " forced " to use a specific tactic in order to survive, i find that rather boring.

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2013, 19:14
by dicsoupcan
Forgive me for kicking this topic, but I read somewhere on the forum that the market values will be changed so that trading will be harder, again. (i.e., it is going to be different from the balance testing release). Is this true?
It's been increased slightly to 2.2 (was 2.0 in r4297, and 2.5 in r4179). We can always change it back during RC testing if market strategies become unusable. To be honest I quite liked the uses of the market that To showed in his most recent video.
Me, too, Lewin. However, Dicsoupcan and Pizza have come up with an almost game-breaking way of abusing the marketplace. They nearly all of their food for corn, which they use to make early pigs and skins. They then have sausage and leather armor at an incredibly early time. This strategy is excellent for rushing and also doesn't sacrifice much for end-game since sausages are being produced at such an early time. This strategy is nowhere near possible without the marketplace. From what this (me) noob sees, if enough players start using this, everyone will be forced to use it in order to survive.
I would like to react on this post for i have done some research thanks to bludmaster who challenged me to do the same thing without market. After doing both builds on the same loc (5 on golden cliffsV.6) i came to the conclusion that the non market way is even stronger then the market way. The only way it can be way stronger is if you can combine both ways somehow. It was really interesting to see this happen, for the market seemed to win untill the great flow of leather came in the non market way.

Offcrouse i try doing both strategies combined, but not today :mrgreen:
cliffs non market.rar
cliffs market.rar

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2013, 22:20
by Lewin
@`Maurice: We will hopefully be ready to start RC testing in a month or so (there's still stuff that needs cleaning up/finishing)

@dicsoupcan: Interesting, we'll see how it goes with 2.2 but if it kills most market strategies in the RC we can change it again.

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 05:06
by Ben
From my experience with the r4297 marketplace, I conclude that raising the marketplace values to 2.2 is a mistake, because the marketplace is already weaker than not using the marketplace (for leather strategies, anyway... not too sure about horses). As Dicsoupcan has pointed out, the marketplace is only better for a short time. rushing for extra farms beats the marketplace in the (not so very) long run.

For a while, I figured that market strategies were weaker than non-market strategies, but were, instead, just easier for weaker players (such as myself) to handle. For a few weeks, I tried playing like Pizza and Dicsoupcan: abusing (trying to, anyway) the marketplace. I noticed that my armies were getting better, but recently, I have stopped using the marketplace. When not using the marketplace, I now have larger armies than if I were to use the marketplace, plus a stronger economy (less starvation because I don't sell my food, plus I'm making more of it).

Anyway, this is my prediction. Although raising the marketplace values to 2.2 may be a mistake, it I suppose that it should still be tested. After all, what are the balance testing builds for anyway? ;)

P.S., if the next version allows players to block weapons in the barrack/ take weapons out of the barrack, the marketplace may see a huge amount of use in altegames in order to sell axes and other wooden weapons for gold, so perhaps increasing the values won't totally ruin the building anyway.

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 07:07
by Jeronimo
I'm also against 2.2 raise. No real need.

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 10:00
by The Dark Lord
P.S., if the next version allows players to block weapons in the barrack/ take weapons out of the barrack, the marketplace may see a huge amount of use in altegames in order to sell axes and other wooden weapons for gold, so perhaps increasing the values won't totally ruin the building anyway.
This is a very valid point. After yesterday's game I've been thinking... And I'm pretty sure adding a marketplace into my gameplay would make me stronger for sure. You see, these times I have 2 problems: gold and food. Gold because I fail, food because I (semi-)rush. Yesterday my gold production was okay, I had 3 metallurgists and 3 schools and I could spam quite some units. But I noticed too late that 2 of my gold mines ran out and it took some time to make new ones, in which I lost valuable time. But even with those 3 metallurgists and 3 gold mines running I wasn't able to use all the weapons in my barracks. And eventually I had 70+ unused axes (and also some leather armour and bows). If I would trade those, it could solve food problems or gold problems. :?

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 15:49
by sado1
This is a very valid point. After yesterday's game I've been thinking... And I'm pretty sure adding a marketplace into my gameplay would make me stronger for sure. You see, these times I have 2 problems: gold and food. Gold because I fail, food because I (semi-)rush. Yesterday my gold production was okay, I had 3 metallurgists and 3 schools and I could spam quite some units. But I noticed too late that 2 of my gold mines ran out and it took some time to make new ones, in which I lost valuable time. But even with those 3 metallurgists and 3 gold mines running I wasn't able to use all the weapons in my barracks. And eventually I had 70+ unused axes (and also some leather armour and bows). If I would trade those, it could solve food problems or gold problems. :?
(...) And I'm pretty sure adding a marketplace into my gameplay (...)
:O

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 16:13
by The Dark Lord
Don't be so surprised, it's not like I never built one before; I just prefer to play without. But if it's really necessary (which it seems to be) I might be able to allow myself to build one... somewhere after peacetime...

Re: Planned market changes

PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 16:15
by Da Revolution
TDL always builds one, but he hides it on the corner of the map.