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Planned market changes

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Lewin

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:33

Re: Planned market changes

Mulberry wrote:WHat is a right moment? :D It is start of a game. 10 woodcutters from start then farms and gold! Very skillfull build order. Try and test what are you suggesting and we will laught at it together.

If you think it's necessary to have 10 woodcutters at the start of the game in order to make enough wood then it sounds like the maps need more starting wood for your playstyle. I don't understand why you think the market is a better/more skilful solution than just adding a bit of extra wood to the storehouses. What's the difference? The market just delays it a bit because you have to feed the coal in.

I don't understand your arguments.
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Mulberry

Pikeman

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:33

Re: Planned market changes

Kirelareus wrote:
Mulberry wrote:So find this "number of ways", use it! And then change marketplace values the way you want too. And if we will need to add 5 or 10 min of PT i will be really much dissapointed. Give us balanced maps first! And also i would like to see a list of methods by wihch you are gonna balance locations so people can respond on it.

The Dark Lord, I am a strong player. Am i? I dont want to play when i know that weaker player will make as much as i will. Its rediculous!


Do not make a fit. :P Pro (if you position yourself as pro) should be able to play without market :P


I dont give a crap about myself. Ill better feel myself bad in a good game the feel myself bad in unplayable game. SO what am i doing is trying to help in solving issues. What are you doing here is trolling.

You can consider yourself as a PRO if you want. I will NEVER consider myself as a PRO, because i am playing for FUN. Go make fun of someone else.
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Bo_

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:39

Re: Planned market changes

Who needs coal mines?
Just trade 1 trunk for 1 coal, infinite resource.
Who needs leather?
Trade it for iron.

That's the way I see thinks here...
Kick fast, think Bo.
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Kirelareus

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:40

Re: Planned market changes

Mulberry wrote:
Kirelareus wrote:
Mulberry wrote:So find this "number of ways", use it! And then change marketplace values the way you want too. And if we will need to add 5 or 10 min of PT i will be really much dissapointed. Give us balanced maps first! And also i would like to see a list of methods by wihch you are gonna balance locations so people can respond on it.

The Dark Lord, I am a strong player. Am i? I dont want to play when i know that weaker player will make as much as i will. Its rediculous!


Do not make a fit. :P Pro (if you position yourself as pro) should be able to play without market :P


I dont give a crap about myself. Ill better feel myself bad in a good game the feel myself bad in unplayable game. SO what am i doing is trying to help in solving issues. What are you doing here is trolling.

You can consider yourself as a PRO if you want. I will NEVER consider myself as a PRO, because i am playing for FUN. Go make fun of someone else.


Hmm .... I advise to you to take a sedative.
My words - the stark reality. I see that you are concerned about new prices.
Your words show, that that's a tragedy for you
R.A - power in unity!
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The Dark Lord

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:45

Re: Planned market changes

Mulberry wrote:The Dark Lord, I am a strong player. Am i?

Yes you are.

Mulberry wrote:I dont want to play when i know that weaker player will make as much as i will. Its rediculous!

And that's exactly how it has been for me all the time; weaker players who use the market will have as much as me, players equally good will have more.

About building orders... I actually think it won't make any difference, or maybe it will even add variety. I don't see the variety when everyone builds a market, a coal mine and starts trading for tree trunks. Without the marketplace, you have to think and plan ahead. Where will I make my woodcutters? How many will I build of them? When will I add new ones? What will I build in the mean time? Can I build a couple of farms and mines before I have my new woodcutters up? Will I set them on 'fell only' or 'plant and cut'? How will manage my building space?
It's really different from 'hey I build a marketplace and then I can build whatever I want uhuhuhuhuh!!!'

Bo wrote:Just trade 1 trunk for 1 coal, infinite resource.

Go ahead! I won't laugh when your building plans have come to a complete halt... I promise! :mrgreen:
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Bo_

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:46

Re: Planned market changes

I'm just saying that it makes no sense to me that 1 trunk is worth 2 coal, knowing that coal gets depleted.
Kick fast, think Bo.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:50

Re: Planned market changes

I think Krom meant 2 trunks for 1 coal but I'm not sure.
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Krom

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 12:59

Re: Planned market changes

I think Krom meant 2 trunks for 1 coal but I'm not sure.

Yes, thats what I meant on page 1.

@MrBo: That sounds good as long as you don't take production speed into account. When you do, you will see that 6 woodcutters are barely enough to provide same flow of Coal that 3-4 coalmines do, nevermind the required space to fit the forest. That looks good on paper, but in game this trade is unprofitable.
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The Dark Site

Woodcutter

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 13:07

Re: Planned market changes

I haven't done any calculations, but removing the abused marketplace strategy will be a very good thing.

There will indeed be a bigger difference between good and bad players, good and bad locations. The players is due to the fact that this game will be even more difficult to manage your city. City management is the aim and skill of this game so this difference in skill is necessary.

The good and bad locations should be solved by having a lot more mirrored maps. I have always been wondering why not all maps are mirrored. I guess people care a lot more about the look and feel of a game than me. Anyway, lets not make this a discussion about which maps can be played after nerving the marketplace.

I just care about the strategy and the availability of different strategies. Without the market there will be more strategic options available as the abused marketplace strategy was a dominant strategy.
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dicsoupcan

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 13:14

Re: Planned market changes

well as far as i can see is that there are 2 opinions going on in this thread. the first one is from lewin and krom, wich basically is the market needs to return to the purpose it is supposed to serve. And this purpose is to help you in emergencycases and to keep you going when your resources get depleted. I understand that and i respect that.

The other opinion is that the market helps solve imbalance issues in maps, for example the tree trunk trading. you can trade for tree trunks to make up the lack of tree around your town( while the enemy may have more trees to chop) and it slows the game wich are also a valid points in my opinion. I think it is valid because when you do not trade and your woodcutter needd to plant trees the flow of wood stops. the only thing i can think of to prevent this from happening is to make woodcutters at your forests first, and then you build some woodcutters on an open field to plant. this way the flow will be better, at least it will not stop flowing for a while. but an another point that is made is that this requires more time and you will start falling behind others who do use the market in it's current form. In the case of the market in it's new form the game will just be slower.

I do like the market, and i agree it is a dominant strategy at the moment. It is good that lewin and krom want to make the market like it is intended purpose. But i also agree with tdl that the new values have to be tested. regardless of what happens to the market i think we all should try to adjust to the new values, new strategies always arise around changes. we can only see the pro's and con's after testing it.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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Lewin

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 13:48

Re: Planned market changes

I made some changes to the original values (mainly trees a bit less valuable), now it's like this:
4 coal/iron ore/gold ore -> 1 tree trunk.
1 tree -> 1 coal
2 trees -> iron/gold ore (ore is about 20% more valuable than coal since you can't build as many mines as you can with coal)
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The Dark Site

Woodcutter

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 13:54

Re: Planned market changes

Lewin wrote:I made some changes to the original values (mainly trees a bit less valuable), now it's like this:
4 coal/iron ore/gold ore -> 1 tree trunk.
1 tree -> 1 coal
2 trees -> iron/gold ore (ore is about 20% more valuable than coal since you can't build as many mines as you can with coal)


I think you shouldn't be able to buy coal with 1 tree, that is too cheap again. Anything you use the market for should undoubtly be more expensive than the normal way.
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Lewin

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 14:01

Re: Planned market changes

The Dark Site wrote:
Lewin wrote:I made some changes to the original values (mainly trees a bit less valuable), now it's like this:
4 coal/iron ore/gold ore -> 1 tree trunk.
1 tree -> 1 coal
2 trees -> iron/gold ore (ore is about 20% more valuable than coal since you can't build as many mines as you can with coal)


I think you shouldn't be able to buy coal with 1 tree, that is too cheap again. Anything you use the market for should undoubtly be more expensive than the normal way.

But trees are about twice as slow to produce from a woodcutter than coal is from a coal mine, plus they take a big area around your woodcutter. 1 tree will give you 2 bits of wood (enough for a bow or something) but 1 bit of coal gives you what? It takes 2 coal to make an iron weapon (not counting the iron ore/processing steps) and 1 coal to produce gold. I really can't imagine a game where somebody would exploit trading tree trunks to coal. Trees are a lot more valuable than coal which is usually quite abundant.
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EDMatt

Knight

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 14:33

Re: Planned market changes

The solution (4 coal/iron ore/gold ore -> 1 tree trunk) is 1 step closer to the right direction, but I feel it might be a bit over the top.
Now the game is changed though for 1 tree trunk = 1 coal.
imagine this now, player makes a small base with an iron production and places 20 woodcutters for late game, infinite coal and iron for infinite iron production with no skill and thought behind their build.

TRADE TREET TRUNKS FOR IRON AND COAL :)

I would like to see this fixed.

Also I would suggest testing 4 for 1 tree trunk and 3 for 1 tree trunk to see if it works as 4 for 1 sounds not too bad but might be too expensive.
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Lewin

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Post 07 Nov 2012, 14:55

Re: Planned market changes

EDMatt wrote:Now the game is changed though for 1 tree trunk = 1 coal.
imagine this now, player makes a small base with an iron production and places 20 woodcutters for late game, infinite coal and iron for infinite iron production with no skill and thought behind their build.

TRADE TREET TRUNKS FOR IRON AND COAL :)

I would like to see this fixed.

20 woodcutters produce as much coal as approximately 10 coal mines. So that player would have been much better to just build 10 coal mines (not hard on most maps), since woodcutters require a massive amount of space (not many maps where you could fit 20 so they have enough space for trees), and you need 2x as many in order to make the same amount of coal. But I agree it does sound kind of cheap so if enough people complain about it I might try to make that 2:1 without messing up the other values too much.
But I guess you're just trolling, it's hard to tell these days :rolleyes:
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