How to make bowmen more useful

[Lewin]

Note: To save confusion please use bowmen/bows to refer to "wooden bowmen", and crossbowmen/crossbows/xbows to refer to crossbowmen in this discussion.

As you are probably aware just about everybody mass produces crossbowmen in KaM, but you rarely see bowmen used. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with crossbowman being the most powerful units, but it would be nice to see bowmen fit a purpose in the game too, because right now the crossbowman basically makes bowmen redundant. You're better to spend your leather/wood on spearmen to guard your crossbowmen. The planned "units with shields defence bonus against arrows" won't solve this problem because it will make both crossbowmen and bowmen less effective against shielded units, so crossbowmen will still be preferred.

Here's the notes from our balance document:

+ means positive reason (pro)
- means negative reason (con)

  Code:

ISSUE: Bowmen are rarely used, crossbowmen are so much better. POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS: 1. Decrease aiming pause for bowmen + Overall damage-per-second will be more equal + Makes bowmen more effective at destroying towers, that gives them a special role and means we might see more towers being shot down. + Makes bowmen different from crossbowmen, not just a weaker/less powerful crossbowmen, they have a unique difference. + Fairly realistic, AFAIK crossbows take longer to draw and reload. 2. Increase bowmen attack - Arrows by nature are weaker than bolts 3. Increase bowmen accuracy - Lewin: IMO it makes more sense for bowmen/crossbowmen to have similar accuracy. 4. Decrease crossbowman attack down from 120 (which is already the highest attack except Towers) 5. Increase bowmen range by +1 + Makes bowmen vs crossbowmen face-offs before battles more interesting - Could let you shoot over some hills you are not supposed to in certain maps

Please discuss these and your own suggestions. Currently I'm in favor of testing a shorter aiming pause for bowmen because I'd rather make bowmen a bit unique compared to crossbowmen. They already have a slightly shorter firing sequence (as in original KaM), but we can reduce the aiming delay which is currently 0.8-1.6 seconds (random), same as crossbowmen. This might not make a big enough difference to make bowmen useful, so we can combine it with other solutions if testing shows that is necessary.

Any chosen solution(s) will be tested before being implemented in a public release, we will almost certainly do multiple iterations of testing (probably at the same time as we test the shields bonus).

Warning: In the past we've had problems with balance topics become laden with insults, flaming and off topic posts. This will not be tolerated and moderators will be watching this and other balance topics closely. Please keep the discussion polite and constructive. Point out the flaws in people's arguments rather than insulting them because you disagree. Warnings and/or bans will be given if warranted.

[Remake 2012]

IMO: You should increase the distance of the shot. (archer), Crossbowman should be stronger (logical), but have a shorter range shot.

[Krom]

I don't think bowmen should be necessarily comparable with xbowmen. Do we need that diversity in balance?

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

Increase bowmen accuracy
- Lewin: IMO it makes more sense for bowmen/crossbowmen to have similar accuracy.

I disagree.

I think a well trained bowman has better accuracy than a well train xbowman. I think that's because with a normal bow, you have full control over your weapon. With xbows, it's just placing a bolt and pulling the trigger.. It's way harder to aim that way, since it will always be shot with the same speed. That's why I think the bowmen should have better accuracy.

Second, I do like the first option (Decreasing aiming pause for bowmen). Sounds fine.

Third, I think increasing the distance of the shot is OK too. I'm not really sure if this is historically accurate, because that would depend on what kind of bow was used and the person who used it. Xbows always fire at the same speed, so they have only a certain distance. I think normal bows are more likely to exceed their max distance.

[vovets1]

IMO: You should increase the distance of the shot. (archer), Crossbowman should be stronger (logical), but have a shorter range shot.

Hm... And what about bandits? (People throw stones.)

[Lewin]

I don't think bowmen should be necessarily comparable with xbowmen. Do we need that diversity in balance?

No they don't need to be comparible, but look at it this way: A pikeman is not comparable with a lance carrier (since the pikeman would also win over the lance carrier). And yet we see both units regularly used in multiplayer games, even when iron is available people still train lance carriers. But I can't remember the last time I saw a bowmen used in a multiplayer where iron was available, and that's an aspect of the game going unused, the same as wine was unused in multiplayer before r4001. I would like to see every unit in KaM be a viable choice and fit some purpose. If people disagree please write your opinions here, maybe you've seen bowmen used more than I have?

IMO: You should increase the distance of the shot. (archer), Crossbowman should be stronger (logical), but have a shorter range shot.

That could cause problems because some maps are probably designed around the exact range of bowmen not being able to shoot over a hill. Maybe that's not such a big deal, but it's worth considering. I agree this would make bowmen more interesting because in face to face stand-offs bowmen would be able to shoot sooner than crossbowmen. I don't think it would lead to make them much more useful during battles, but maybe it would make them useful before battles. I added it to the list.

[Private.NL]

ISSUE:
Bowmen are rarely used, crossbowmen are so much better.
POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:
1. Decrease aiming pause for bowmen
+ Overall damage-per-second will be more equal
+ Makes bowmen more effective at destroying towers, that gives them a special role and means we might see more towers being shot down.
+ Makes bowmen different from crossbowmen, not just a weaker/less powerful crossbowmen, they have a unique difference.
+ Fairly realistic, AFAIK crossbows take longer to draw and reload.

Decreasing the aiming pause for wooden bowmen seems to be a fair thing to me. I do fully agree on the realistic part. A unique difference is good imo, because it will make a difference if you chose for the wooden bowmen or the crossbowmen. Destroying towers is not really an argument. Destroying towers does not happen quite often because it is not usefull and I think this, because you have to keep an eye on your bowmen (in general both crossbow and wooden bowmen) and in the time you lose keeping an eye on the bowmen, you could have made some coal mines or something else in your base.

2. Increase bowmen attack
- Arrows by nature are weaker than bolts

The question is : do we want a better wooden bowmen or a realistic game. I prefer a realistic game. So imo this option is not good.

3. Increase bowmen accuracy
- Lewin: IMO it makes more sense for bowmen/crossbowmen to have similar accuracy.

I agree on Lewin.

4. Decrease crossbowman attack down from 120 (which is already the highest attack except Towers)

- The whole balancing needs to be redone?

5. Increase bowmen range by +1
+ Makes bowmen vs crossbowmen face-offs before battles more interesting
- Could let you shoot over some hills you are not supposed to in certain maps

I agree on the first point and do want to say that the second point should not be able to happen, whatever happens. This will change the balance on some maps, and will give advantage to some locations.

[The Dark Lord]

I am against any form of increasing bowmen range, it will mean that you have to pay attention 24/7 in archer/crossbowmen face-offs.
I don't think decreasing aiming pause would work. To make them useful again, I guess you would have to remove the whole pause.
I prefer increasing their attack. That makes them more useful against crossbowmen too, because at this moment they are extremely hopeless against crossbowmen. Yesterday I was playing Paradise Island and I was fighting against someone who had a location with iron, so at a certain moment we had a bowmen/crossbowmen fight. My formation was wider, more units could shoot at once, but in the first seconds of that fight I lost about 7 units in one second, he lost about 2. I'm not really into the fighting system, but from my experience it seems that crossbowmen have a great chance to kill bowmen in one shot, while bowmen probably need ~4 shots. They would also become stronger versus other units again, because now they just do nothing (maybe a bit damage, but who cares, I want to KILL the enemy and not just HURT them, and when facing an army supported by crossbowmen your melee units will DIE before being able to deal a decisive blow). This would be great combined with a bonus for units with shields... It all makes sense... I can already see it in my head...

[vovets1]

"I am against any form of increasing bowmen range"
I agree

[Remake 2012]

IMO: You should increase the distance of the shot. (archer), Crossbowman should be stronger (logical), but have a shorter range shot.

That could cause problems because some maps are probably designed around the exact range of bowmen not being able to shoot over a hill. Maybe that's not such a big deal, but it's worth considering. I agree this would make bowmen more interesting because in face to face stand-offs bowmen would be able to shoot sooner than crossbowmen. I don't think it would lead to make them much more useful during battles, but maybe it would make them useful before battles. I added it to the list.

IMO:

Legend:
option 1 :
Archers can not shoot at each other through the mountains. Because the mountains block the view. Mountains in the game are large, there are more than 3-4 times greater than man. Archers can not shoot through the mountains.
but...
Archers can shoot through the mountains. how ?
Allow archers to shoot at a specific location for the mountains.

option 2 and 3 :
Archers on the hill has a longer range than the archer who is on the ground. (Logical), archer, who is on the ground (option 3) can shoot the archer, who is on a hill, but it must come close to the hill.
assumption: Archer is 7 frames after the shooting (7 boxes to the right) (Example)
The biggest hill let's say there are 3 bars up. Archers must approach to within 4 squares away from the archer to be able to shoot him. (4 +3 = 7)
********error in the image - green archer should be under 3, not in 4************

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I was very surprised why they have not been introduced. ? For centuries, archers used the hill for a larger range shot. This is normal standard. Maps will be more interesting.
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Now in the game. does not matter if archers are hills or not. Is that supposed to be? NO! Who does not agree with it does a huge mistake.

[Krom]

KaM is a 2D game where terrain height is only a visual effect. Hence all the ranges and directions are equal for all units and logic algorithms.

[Remake 2012]

KaM is a 2D game where terrain height is only a visual effect. Hence all the ranges and directions are equal for all units and logic algorithms.

OK. add a new subroutine. / option in the editor
The Mapmakers which marked the map to where the archer has a greater range.

The Bad mountains were to the four hill. In another map a few other places. Mapmaker used to set the boxes to where the archer will have a longer range (as put in X [no move])

L-O-S-T - Survival :


+3 range
+2 range
+1 range

[Krom]

@Remake2012: Let's leave height-range modifications for another time and another topic. Here we discuss Box vs. XBow.

[Bo_]

What about this:
Xbow always have the same attack, attack speed and accuracy.
For bowmen it depends on their distance:
The closer they are (or farther), the higher their dammage or accuracy or attack speed.
This would make range way more tactical IMO, you would need both for the perfect range army.
This could alos allow to have for example +3 max range, so they can shoot way farther but with a weaker attack.

[Thomas]

Yesterday I was playing Paradise Island and I was fighting against someone who had a location with iron, so at a certain moment we had a bowmen/crossbowmen fight. My formation was wider, more units could shoot at once, but in the first seconds of that fight I lost about 7 units in one second, he lost about 2. I'm not really into the fighting system, but from my experience it seems that crossbowmen have a great chance to kill bowmen in one shot, while bowmen probably need ~4 shots. They would also become stronger versus other units again, because now they just do nothing (maybe a bit damage, but who cares, I want to KILL the enemy and not just HURT them, and when facing an army supported by crossbowmen your melee units will DIE before being able to deal a decisive blow).

I think all in all xbows should of course be stronger than bows simply because they're iron units. That is why everybody will use xbows as long as you will have iron on some maps.

I don't think bowmen should be necessarily comparable with xbowmen. Do we need that diversity in balance?

No they don't need to be comparible, but look at it this way: A pikeman is not comparable with a lance carrier (since the pikeman would also win over the lance carrier). And yet we see both units regularly used in multiplayer games, even when iron is available people still train lance carriers. But I can't remember the last time I saw a bowmen used in a multiplayer where iron was available, and that's an aspect of the game going unused, the same as wine was unused in multiplayer before r4001. I would like to see every unit in KaM be a viable choice and fit some purpose. If people disagree please write your opinions here, maybe you've seen bowmen used more than I have?

I also think the best way would be to decrease the aiming pause, as increasing the damage or range will only lead to problems (especially balance issues on some maps). But from my experience I think that as long as you will have iron on some maps, you will always see much more xbows than bows and I suppose that even a decreased aiming pause will, unfortunately, not change anything...