Changes to market values in the RC

[Lewin]

Mulberry asked about it so here's a topic for it. The changes were aimed to make food values relate to how much they feed your citizens.

First of all, our market values work on the following principles: (this is how it has ALWAYS worked)
1. Renewable resources (wine, corn, tree trunks) are worth 1 divided by the number produced each time (so all of them are 1)
2. Non-renewable resources (ore, stone) are worth 2 divided by the number produced each time (so stone is 2/3)
3. Each time a resource is processed, the output is worth:
((value of each input resource)*(number of each input resource) + 1) / (number of resources output)
The +1 is to account for a value increase by processing it. So a sword is worth: ((value of coal)*1 + (value of iron)*1 + 1) / 1
4. When you trade at the market you lose some resource according to a trade off factor which is currently 2.5. So if I trade two equal resources like corn and wine, 1 corn will cost me 2.5 wine and 1 wine will cost me 2.5 corn.


Previous the values of food were:
Fish: 1
Sausages: 1.16666666
Bread: 1.5
Wine: 1

Now they are:
Fish: 1.5
Sausages:1.666666
Bread: 1.5
Wine: 1

This was achieved by the following changes:
1. Pigs/skins are more valuable by counting 4 processing steps, rather than just 1 like it did before. It takes him quite a while when he feeds/slaughters the pigs so I think that makes sense. So previously a pig/skin was worth 2.5: (1*4 + 1)/2 and now they are worth 4: (1*4 + 4)/2.
This also flows on to effect leather/leather armour of course. Previously leather armour was worth 2.75, now it's worth 3.5. IMO this makes more sense because wooden weapons are worth 3, and I think leather armour should be more valuable than wooden weapons. It also puts sausages at just the right place slightly above bread/fish.
Note: Horses were not changed, since he feeds them very quickly so the entire process of producing a horse costs 4 corn + 1 processing step.

2. I added +0.5 to fish because fishing is very slow business. This makes them equal to bread which is about right (fish is actually slightly better).

For those of you who want to check over it, here's the code:

  Code:

procedure TKMResourceCollection.CalculateCostsTable; const NonRenewableFactor = 2; ProcessingCost = 1; begin //Take advantage of the fact that we have both classes in same unit //and assign to private field directly Resources[rt_Trunk ].fMarketPrice := 1; Resources[rt_Stone ].fMarketPrice := (1/3)*NonRenewableFactor; Resources[rt_Wood ].fMarketPrice := (1/2)*(ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Trunk].MarketPrice); Resources[rt_IronOre ].fMarketPrice := 1*NonRenewableFactor; Resources[rt_GoldOre ].fMarketPrice := 1*NonRenewableFactor; Resources[rt_Coal ].fMarketPrice := 1*NonRenewableFactor; Resources[rt_Steel ].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_IronOre].MarketPrice + Resources[rt_Coal].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_Gold ].fMarketPrice := (1/2)*(ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_GoldOre].MarketPrice + Resources[rt_Coal].MarketPrice); Resources[rt_Wine ].fMarketPrice := 1; Resources[rt_Corn ].fMarketPrice := 1; Resources[rt_Flour ].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Corn].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_Bread ].fMarketPrice := (1/2)*(ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Flour].MarketPrice); Resources[rt_Pig ].fMarketPrice := (1/2)*4*(ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Corn].MarketPrice); //1/2 because two products are made simultaneously Resources[rt_Skin ].fMarketPrice := (1/2)*4*(ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Corn].MarketPrice); //1/2 because two products are made simultaneously Resources[rt_Leather ].fMarketPrice := (1/2)*(ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Skin].MarketPrice); Resources[rt_Sausages ].fMarketPrice := (1/3)*(ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Pig].MarketPrice); Resources[rt_Shield ].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Wood].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_MetalShield].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Steel].MarketPrice + Resources[rt_Coal].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_Armor ].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Leather].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_MetalArmor ].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Steel].MarketPrice + Resources[rt_Coal].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_Axe ].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + 2*Resources[rt_Wood].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_Sword ].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Steel].MarketPrice + Resources[rt_Coal].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_Pike ].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + 2*Resources[rt_Wood].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_Hallebard ].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Steel].MarketPrice + Resources[rt_Coal].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_Bow ].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + 2*Resources[rt_Wood].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_Arbalet ].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + Resources[rt_Steel].MarketPrice + Resources[rt_Coal].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_Horse ].fMarketPrice := ProcessingCost + 4*Resources[rt_Corn].MarketPrice; Resources[rt_Fish ].fMarketPrice := (1/2)*NonRenewableFactor + 0.5; //+0.5 because Fishing is very slow end;

[-George Stain-]

I am just worried by this new market values.. I don't know why, but I think that swine branch is now more usefull that bread branch.. just my opinion, nothing confirmed.

I remember volcano valleys, where I used 3 markets for selling bread.. bread now isn't important for me by nothing.. becouse sousage is in the same vallue and I get still skins etc. (sorry for my bad english)

[Lewin]

The value of bread hasn't changed, so you can still sell it the way you used to. It makes a lot of sense that sausages are worth slightly more than bread because they fill up your citizens more.

[thunder]

Hi!

"First of all, our market values work on the following principles: (this is how it has ALWAYS worked)
1. Renewable resources (wine, corn, tree trunks) are worth 1 divided by the number produced each time (so all of them are 1)
2. Non-renewable resources (ore, stone) are worth 2 divided by the number produced each time (so stone is 2/3)
3. Each time a resource is processed, the output is worth:
((value of each input resource)*(number of each input resource) + 1) / (number of resources output)
The +1 is to account for a value increase by processing it. So a sword is worth: ((value of coal)*1 + (value of iron)*1 + 1) / 1
4. When you trade at the market you lose some resource according to a trade off factor which is currently 2.5. So if I trade two equal resources like corn and wine, 1 corn will cost me 2.5 wine and 1 wine will cost me 2.5 corn."


In last game i saw 5players had market, and nobody use it hard.1-2 transaction. Now I think its really expensive. Total unuseable and costly building. The last version was little better.


Value:
1.building levels (processing steps 1,2,3)
2.renewble resources
3.Non-renewable resources
4.how many made per turn(divide)
5.how many buildings can use it (-timber-buildings-weapons-armors...or corn(made one per turn and use 3kind of buildings)-mill,swine farm,stables.)
6.Need a max price: i've never seen that somebody buy iron weapons, or armors from corns...Is the corn important in the new release?
7.Correction of the prices
8."P" multiplier (priority factor of the ware)
9."h" (house number-how many house created the ware)
...


The market doesnt need too much profit. it is workig for player for the winning of the game.

I started to thinking on it, not finished yet!!! and it is walking in child shoes:)
ID Number-value-Ware Name-Building Level
0.-- 1 Tree trunk 1
1.-- 0.6 Stone 1
2.-- 1.5 Timber 2
3.-- 2 Iron ore 1
4.-- 2 Gold ore 1
5.-- 2 Coal 1
6.-- 4 Iron 2
7.-- 3 Gold 2
8.-- 2 Wine 1
9.-- 1 Corn 1
10.- 2 Loaves 3
11.- 2 Flour 2
12.- 3 Leather 3
13.- 2 Sausages 3
14.- 2 Pig 2
15.- 2 Skin 2
16.- 2 Wooden Shield 3
17.- 6 Long Shield 3
18.- 3 Leather Armor 3
19.- 6 Iron Armament 3
20.- 4 Handaxe 3
21.- 6 Longsword 3
22.- 4 Lance 3
23.- 6 Pike 3
24.- 4 Longbow 3
25.- 6 Crossbow 3
26.- 2 Horse 2
27.- 2 Fish 1

I know many players dont like the market, but if it is, then be better.
All wares are important!
now 20 corns-one iron armor in the M. 20corns 4-5horses in the stable. 2ironarmor-1horse in the M?
The multiplayer games are not too long. 20corns are very lot in this intervall and with this kind of food charges(12mins need). How many corns created in one minute by the farm? one plan one cutting if there enough fields?
And if you started to take to the market the corn, you dont have food....So maybe the corn's value will be much expensive or the armor be cheaper.....

And ideas for the futures. If the wares have fix values, then be combinating them. (One trunk+one timber =value:2.5)
Or every player has another market values what is counting with the number of citizens and number of houses...


have nice day!
t

P.S:: repeat,the list need correction, not perfect!! just a fast idea.

[Lewin]

In last game i saw 5players had market, and nobody use it hard.1-2 transaction. Now I think its really expensive. Total unuseable and costly building. The last version was little better.\

The market hasn't changed since the last version except for the few things I mentioned above to balance food. We don't want the market to be exploitable, trading should be an expensive option and much less effective than producing the resources yourself. If trades were more efficient then nobody would bother producing anything, they would just make raw materials like wood, stone, corn, etc. and trade them into weapons/other resources directly. We want the market to useful in some circumstances but not "required". A player who does not use the market should not have a disadvantage compared to a player who does use the market. It's an optional tech choice, not a necessity IMO.

[The Dark Lord]

More changes like this please, the more people complain about market values the better it is for me.
/ego-mode

[thunder]

OK, market is an option, agree with you, but 20corns for something is irreal in time.(but it is only an perspective)
And naturally market isnt the best way, but good if it is.

Yes Lord, you were who didnt built it in that game;) (and you lost only 2 citizens.)

I hope the market will find his golden way!

t

[Mulberry]

My opinion about marketplace values i explained in the following topic. Using the example of skins value. Please help the discussion: http://knightsandmerchants.net/forum/vi ... =26&t=1108


For moderator, I can copy text here but i dont think i need to spamm. Ando also i really suggest to look on this point systematicly, not partualy. So please follow a link.

[Mulberry]

What showed my expirience in r4001: the marketplace is a shame of KaM Remake. We need to correct values, or find out a new system for this building. It is all about trading again, but different wares then before.

[The Dark Lord]

Well what can I say... I will try to leave all my sarcasm behind and give some structural feedback that might actually be of some use, instead of my usual lamentations. And Mulberry I'm glad to see your opinion about the marketplace.

As I explained some times before, the hardest aspect of playing without a market is timber. Players who trade have infinite timber and can build as many buildings as they want. They have 35-40 builders and actually use them; Players like me who have to make long roads and have to spend 3 timber per woodcutter's hut are not as efficient. Especially on maps with many resources it is so easy to make 2 extra coal mines and trade coal for tree trunks. I used to say 'Yeah but you will run out of resources first so you'll be at a disadvantage eventually', but times have changed. Most maps these days have such an amount of resources that it doesn't really matter if you trade a half coal field, 95% of the games will end before you run out of resources (and yes I do realize Paradise Island has enough coal to keep trading forever ).
This problem can only be fixed in one way: removing the marketplace from the game. I know, it's harsh, it will probably never happen, but it's true.
Even if you make everything twice as expensive it won't help, 2 coal for 1 tree trunk (=2 timber) is still cheap and coal will be produced at a MUCH higher speed than your woodcutters will ever be able to plant and cut trees. Starting with 1 = 1 and making everything more expensive as you trade more of it won't help either, because it will still help people a lot at the start and that is exactly when they need it. I agree it will make things better, but it will never be what it originally was like...

[Lewin]

@Mulberry: Thanks for your feedback on the market. Do you think increasing the value of some resources (like tree trunks) will "solve" the problem? I would like the marketplace be an option the player may choose, not the only effective strategy. So you can still be a top player without using the market at all and win against players who use it. I'd like to hear your suggestions for how to balance it.

@The Dark Lord: If we increase the costs enough I think it can become balanced. The problem is we made non-renewable resources more valuable (because they're limited) but this doesn't play a factor in most maps because there's heaps of resources available. I think the market is ok in theory, but it must not be the only way to win against skilled players. It's a strategic choice, not a compulsory strategy. In the worst case we can replace the market's role with trading between players, but I think a lot of people like the current role of the marketplace, and in some ways it makes the game more accessible to new players because if you do something silly like run out of gold before getting a metallurgist you can trade for some more, rather than losing.

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

I rarely use the market. The only scenario I use it in, is when I run out of stone or gold (which is rarely the case). I agree with TDL that players that use the market to supply them with tree trunks have a very big advantage and that's not fair compared to players who harvest tree trunks the way it was meant.

In some way, I like the fact that it's in the game so you don't end up dead when you're out of stone or gold, but I think it has to be changed dramatically and I do love the idea of the market being used for trading between players.

[sado1]

You made non-renewable resources more expensive, but you didn't realize that the most important thing in r4001 is space. N-R resources are usually in numbers good enough to make it until the end of the game (and most of the games are short). But planning your woodcutters is crucial and now that everyone needs many farms (and generally more buildings than previously), it takes more time to make a proper wood production, and as there's less space it's not that easy. So, no wonder the best tactic now is to boost the number of trunks. Also no wonder players like TDL (or me as well) are screwed, both because it's harder to make wood production while it's easy for market users, and because the time which TDL needs for the wood production, market users spend on making more food/weapons.

[vovets1]

Lewin knows my opinion on the issue from the logs. I believe that the price should be increased by 1.5 times. If possible. That is for 2 logs we give 3 coal. Purchase of logs now a very common thing, and the fact that they cost as much and the board - is wrong. Although it is said that the board obtained at once, and the logs are sawed necessary, and if the increase in the price of lumber, then they immediately fall in demand. So now there is no demand for the board =))

[Krom]

I see the stem - N-R resources are not actually N-R in most of MP games now.