Changes to market values in the RC

[The Dark Lord]

When those items are locked I won't even build a market anymore and I think I'm not the only one.

Well that's what we want to achieve, isn't it?

[sado1]

I'm not sure. After thinking a while about it, it seems a good solution, but I'm not exactly sold on killing off most of the Market functionality.

However, if Krom's proposal would be combined with between-player trading, that might be cool enough for me. I guess some better players will go on rampage though, after all, this change would promote "worse" players mostly (TDL: mostly ). I'm interested to hear an opposing proposition from a "pro" player, on fixing the Marketplace issue.

[The Dark Lord]

I'm interested to hear an opposing proposition from a "pro" player, on fixing the Marketplace issue.

Good idea, except that most of them don't see it as an issue...

[sado1]

I'm interested to hear an opposing proposition from a "pro" player, on fixing the Marketplace issue.

Good idea, except that most of them don't see it as an issue...

But they will see Krom's proposition as an issue. If they don't want it to happen, they need to tell us why is it wrong, or propose something else, I guess.

[The Dark Lord]

Well yes, you are right about that.

[Fried Chicken]

I don't really care if there is a market or not. Market most of the time just speeds up ur build or gives u some cheated knights, that's all. You use it for the first 20min for tree trunks and the last few mins before pt for horses. You cant trade gold for leather anymore becuz that's basicly too expensive now (imo). Don't really know why everybody makes such a big deal out of it, its actually very simple. If u have a map like Golden cliffs, Back in the Desert, Dead of Winter, etc. There aren't enough trees on most of the locs, some of the locs even have a big shortage of trees. Therefore u use marketplace for trees, otherwise ur build would slow down dramaticly. Fast and good building is the key in KAM, its basicly what it's all about, so that's why people use market/market abuse, simple. If u remove the market. Maps will get slower too play (and no one wants to play with 70pt) or Maps will get seriously unbalanced, becuz some locs simply have more trees than the other ones, so then a lot of maps have to be changed.

[Bo_]

There would be no market needed if there were more trees on the map or, and I think that's a better solution, woodcutters can plant trees faster.
When you place a woodcutter somewhere he will first take out the trees and then actualy start planting, wich gives you the result that for about 5 min (wich is a long time) you will be out of wood if you don't trade. So if there would be an option to plant trees only, then you do like 1 woodcutter planting trees, the other cutting them down and not 2 cutting down, planting, doing nothing for 5 min.

Another thing werefor market is need is horses, you need to trade if you want to have a nice amount of knights and still a complete army AND no starvation.
Or you need to be very skilled but then knights would only be the verry best for us.

Then we also have skins, but that's not a problem IMO.


Then a last thing, if you're a bit too late with farms you have to trade coal for corn otherwise your economy can be down for 20 min just because of the traffic it causes, even when your food is up again.
(Everybody's going to the inn.)
Also your people aren't working, so not even your bakers until they are feeded.
Having starvation for a short time can realy ruin your economy, even when after you fixed it.
So what about making your people still work even when they're hungry? Instead of always going in and out.
Or smarter travelling: Instead of everybody rushing to the inn when there's 1 fish in it, only let 1 person go to the inn.
This would fix the traffic making market not needed when you make a small mistake.

[sado1]

That's a very valid point guys. So we need to do something with trees because they are the real problem. Also the matter of trading for horses is something worth discussion - if it gets blocked then only the best players will be able to make horses, like Bo said. Also, a great idea about letting only 1 person go to Inn per one food piece. By the way - when in Inn, how much food types do they eat at once? One or more?

[The Dark Lord]

What Bo brought up about trees is true. I once ran out of wood on Dead of Winter, even though it has a lot of trees. Not because I just had 1-2 woodcutters (I had at least 4) but because they cut all trees first... A 'plant only' option would be very useful.
And it's not that hard to make a stable and put some corn in it...

[sado1]

And it's not that hart to make a stable and put some corn in it...

For someone who makes 6-8 farms at best...

[The Dark Lord]

Well if you want 15 horses after pt it's a different story, but I'm content with 2-3. But yeah, with 6 farms you'll have a hard time.

[Bo_]

I said a decent army of knights and still a complete army, so that takes time, and if you also want leather and don't want to starve.
Let's say you want 15 knights: 15 horses = 75 corn = 150 bread or 45 saussiges + 30 leather armor.
Big difference IMO.
Maybe it's easy for you but not for the average player here.

[The Dark Lord]

No that wouldn't be easy for me... But I don't want 15 horses anyway. Maybe later, with shield upgrade, but not as long as lance carriers roam the battlefield.

[EDMatt]

I believe Mully made a fair point about the market , and I believe that market has its flaws too, but it also has pros, before making any changes one would have to think about their goal before hand.

So we need to raise a big question for everybody to work around it.
The question is .. is the market balanced or not? is it fair?
To do that we would have to first understand that market is a tool, a building that one has control over, it is only as good as the user using it.
Market is also a double edged sword, you give to gain, but you make a loss no matter how you look at it, but will the loss be turned into profit? that depends on the user and how he handles the market.
One thing for sure, Market adds variety to the game , it lets players play the game they want to (e.g. boosting their wood to build faster food economy or weapons making) and gives the player much more control over their build order.
Also I have to mention that non market users might not necessarily be at a massive disadvantage , I have seen TDL create almost the same ammount of units and wares as most of us did(and I used some heavy marketing there) in a game we had late at night, cursed ravine I believe it was (the map name), so competing against the market is possible without the market itself if the resources are used in the right way (one more example of that is Revolution who is rather solid in his early and lategame with little market use).
The game surprisingly lasted for 2 hours and 30 minutes, and at around the 1 hour 30miinutes I run out of coal completely (I actually stopped trading at 55 minutes into the game ) and as a result was forced to suffer with no gold, but thankfully i could trade iron for coal which was rather expensive, but shortly I run out of iron too and at this stage the I was suffering what I would call the after effects of the heavy market abuse that I did and luckily I had enough bread to trade for coal to keep producing Gold in order to keep training new units, this is just one scenario where one benefits from a market but is also punished later in the game, for every action there is a reaction.



So we already have evidence that a game play with little market use can be competed and might even be an advantage in some respects to one who is not abusing market but that is only the case if the map is balanced.

Ofcourse market has some obvious flaws such as 2 iron bars for a horse which in my opinion is just WAY too cheap.

I believe market needs some small changes but I do not think it would be wise to completely reconstruct it, market is a tool,it will never guarantee a win, never, but market does contain some unfair advantage as I said before, like trading iron for horse , small changes like that are worthy looking at.

This is my 2 cent guys.

[vovets1]

If many people say that the market is set to continue the game, when will the resources, such as coal, gold ore, etc., you can just lock it to the sixtieth minute of the game? Up to this point, the resources do not have time is over, and this is more humane than block all resources, other than exhausted.