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Food in the upcoming release

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Lewin

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Post 19 Aug 2012, 02:09

Food in the upcoming release

Hey guys,
It bothered me that most people never bothered with food production in multiplayer, or if they did it was just to make a butcher to process the "byproduct" of making leather. I remembered that in KaM TSK/TPR food was an important aspect of your economy, so I decided to measure the amount of health units start with in TPR to see how it compared to the Remake. The previous value was guessed. I found that in TPR, units started their with about 12 minutes less condition than the Remake, so I changed the Remake to match this, and thought to myself: "There we go, now food will be a bit more important in the Remake."
Please note that the only change made was the initial condition when the unit begins his life at the start of the mission or from the school/barracks, the time between eating and amount of condition food restores was not changed.

Well 12 minutes doesn't sound like that much, and it only effects units the first time they eat so I didn't think it would make such a big different. The first replay I watched from the release candidate most players' villages were out of food. In the second game people were more aware of it and went for food production early (rather than ignoring it) which worked better, but it will still a struggle to get enough food to feed your people.

Part of the problem here is that multiplayer maps don't start with a lot of food. In TSK most of the campaign missions have 100-300 food in the storehouse at the start, where as most of our multiplayer missions have 60-120. With such a low amount of food you really need to prioritize food production right at the start or your village will die out. I think multiplayer maps should have an average of about 150 food at the start, I'll be making an announcement about required changes for map makers soon.

With this change players' build orders will need to fit in food early on. I remember when playing the campaigns food was usually the first thing you worried about after building the sawmill. Games will probably become a bit longer (although it's still possible to have a large army after 60 minutes peacetime in the games I've seen), and some players' tactics like rushing for iron and ignoring food won't work because your economy will die. We will no doubt get complaints about this when the release goes public. I still believe this is a good change because it now matches original Knights and Merchants, and food will become part of the game again instead of being ignored in multiplayer, which made me sad.
What do you think?
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Da Revolution

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Post 19 Aug 2012, 08:21

Re: Food in the upcoming release

Its a good change if people will higher the amount of starting food. Otherwise you should think about making it for example 7 minutes less condition Balancing this out can make food important, but not too important. I do think the beta-testers aren't always the best sample in issues like this since we are used to play fast and build early farms. So if it works for us doesn't mean it will also work for the majority.
"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path" - Buddha
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Mulberry

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Post 19 Aug 2012, 09:58

Re: Food in the upcoming release

The idea is interesting, but i think it is a bit too much now. I heard very bad expresions at this point yesterday. People were saying like"damn wtf i will go play normal Remake".

I am suggesting to include this changes slower, step-by-step. 12 minutes you say? How much was before? Maybe, more starting food will solve the problem.
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Lewin

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Post 19 Aug 2012, 10:48

Re: Food in the upcoming release

Mulberry wrote:The idea is interesting, but i think it is a bit too much now. I heard very bad expresions at this point yesterday. People were saying like"damn wtf i will go play normal Remake".

People have become used to not caring much about food. The way it is now is normal KaM TSK/TPR. I think with more starting food it will be fine, since it only effects you when units are first created (so once you stop training citizens it's not going to effect you)

Mulberry wrote:I am suggesting to include this changes slower, step-by-step. 12 minutes you say? How much was before? Maybe, more starting food will solve the problem.

It is now 12 minutes LESS than before. In r3392 they had an average of 39.375 minutes before they die, in TPR (and the release candidate) they have 27 minutes before they die. The maximum a unit can have is 45.
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sado1

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Post 19 Aug 2012, 11:45

Re: Food in the upcoming release

I agree the change is needed, I like how it's now impossible to have a huge army at start. But I also think that the change was too big, I hope that more starting food will solve it, but we would need to test it as soon as possible - what about temporarily (without asking mapmakers) changing food values of the few new maps (and maybe few most popular) for the next beta? It wouldn't need that much of work, and would allow us to tell you how did the gameplay improve with more food.

(on a side note, I can't wait to see how unexperienced players are going to struggle now, it will even more widen the gap between new players and pros)
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Lewin

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Post 19 Aug 2012, 12:09

Re: Food in the upcoming release

Next weekend we'll hopefully release the second release candidate with the crash fixed, and with food increased in all maps. I am planning to add food to any maps that aren't updated by the map author before then, I'll just make it so they all have at least 150 food. If the authors don't like it they can change it themselves later.

I agree it needs lots of testing to make sure experienced and inexperienced players can still play with it, as long as they change their build orders to include more food production.

On a side note, this means a soldier will last around 27 minutes before he dies of hunger. Maybe we'll see soldiers being fed too like you did in singleplayer KaM... I don't think anybody ever fed a soldier in multiplayer KaM Remake yet :P
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Da Revolution

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Post 19 Aug 2012, 12:16

Re: Food in the upcoming release

Lewin wrote:On a side note, this means a soldier will last around 27 minutes before he dies of hunger. Maybe we'll see soldiers being fed too like you did in singleplayer KaM... I don't think anybody ever fed a soldier in multiplayer KaM Remake yet :P


Most of my soldiers at the beta died before getting hungry, i think only high quality troops like knights will be fed.
"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path" - Buddha
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Siegfried

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Post 19 Aug 2012, 15:10

Re: Food in the upcoming release

I like the change! Definately keep it this way!

Because now the building maps really are about building a village that can feed the citizens. I had starving cities during my games yesterday. This brings back the good old TSK feeling :)

If you just want to fight, there are the fighting only maps. Finally, if you want a similar behaviour than it was before r3398, you still can increase the amount of food at the beginning.
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Jeronimo

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Post 19 Aug 2012, 16:19

Re: Food in the upcoming release

The change is great IMO... By the way, do all serfs start with -12 minutes condition?
I trained for instance some metallurgists and had only like 45 or 50% condition when came out of school.

If so, keep it... with all this I recommended to make Wine give +50% condition, we could keep or rebalance starting food from older maps storehouses, but I think is a great moment to put Wine in a real same level than Fish (both already with same market value).

Hmm, I made an analysis at "Ideas topic", it would be cool if we agree about this change with Wine food.
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Itlerion

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Post 19 Aug 2012, 17:07

Re: Food in the upcoming release

Hey, i like the changes, the food is more important; maybe not for the troops that are going to die anyway, but yes for your town! you will have take care of the Gold and try to save it avoiding 10 20 30 or 40 serfs dieing from starving.

However i could agree in making wines giving more % , but not 50, if they give 20%, i would make them +25/30/35 , so it will work a bit better, but 50% it is a lot, because, after all, it is just a drink... you can not live drinking wine XD.

Good Job ;)
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Thomas

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Post 20 Aug 2012, 09:54

Re: Food in the upcoming release

It's really good that you changed it back to what it was in original TSK/TPR. I also always disliked the fact that the economic part was not as necessary as in the original game. And this might also increase the need of feeding your soldiers.

Lewin wrote:I don't think anybody ever fed a soldier in multiplayer KaM Remake yet :P

Yeah I think so, too...

Siegfried wrote:Because now the building maps really are about building a village that can feed the citizens. I had starving cities during my games yesterday. This brings back the good old TSK feeling :)
If you just want to fight, there are the fighting only maps. Finally, if you want a similar behaviour than it was before r3398, you still can increase the amount of food at the beginning.

Was playing a game yesterday and thought exactly the same ;) It may sound strange, but definitely this brings back a little bit more of the good old feeling :)

And about the wine: IMO 30% is more than enough. Usually I don't even have to build a wineyard cause my storehouse has plenty of wine and my citizens can't even drink this amount, because they usually only eat bread and sausages.
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ExecutioneRRRR

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Post 20 Aug 2012, 10:25

Re: Food in the upcoming release

Good. Food is important! I love food!
Knights and Merchants in Australia is Roo-Riffic!
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Leeuwgie

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Post 21 Aug 2012, 12:38

Re: Food in the upcoming release

I should test it more to form a final opinion but the changes are huge for sure. For now I like all changes except maybe that towers are a little too good again. Even with extra food added it's still hard to feed your town and there is certainly no food left to feed the troops. On the other hand it forces you to keep your town small, like training less serfs/builders. Which might be a good idea so I'm still trying to find a new decent buildorder. I like the improved replays, very well done. Also the editor that shows you the amount of resources is a good move, it helps balancing things out. And the woodcutters who need less space now is a very good thing.

I wondered, how good are the towers in this beta compared to the Remake en the previous one?

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No matter what, always keep smiling ~ Bassie (from Bassie & Adriaan)
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The Dark Lord

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Post 21 Aug 2012, 14:51

Re: Food in the upcoming release

I just played the release candidate for the first time and this is what I had after an hour. The stats aren't that impressive but I think I built a decent town there without dying from starvation. My storehouse was pretty empty but food production was going fast at the end and I think it wouldn't have been long before my serfs could start filling it. :)
Then again, location 1 is pretty easy and with a sea full of fish it is easier to survive. On the other hand, starting food is just 45 wine, 35 bread and 20 sausages.
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I like that it is harder now, people might end up with smaller armies. :)
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Bo_

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Post 21 Aug 2012, 15:06

Re: Food in the upcoming release

Talking about feeding soldiers...

I wonder, isn't it possible to remove hunger for soldiers?
It may sound strange but:
- 90% of the cases your soldiers are death before they get hungry.
- 10% from the cases, on closed maps like Border rivers, your soldiers get hungry. You can't feed them because your army and serfs get easily shot by enemy archers..
- It's more effective to build more weapons than to build a bigger food production so you can maintain your army, but I think it's stupid that you have to attack just because you know your soldiers would just die.
- The argument it wouldn't fit kam, like I said before, 90% of the games you don't even have to feed your soldiers, it's for those 10% of the games that get ruined because of your soldiers getting hungry.
- Also it's still quite realistic too me, soldiers don't need to be feeded as often as workers.

Well I think this could be open for discussion?
Kick fast, think Bo.
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