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Differences between remake and vanilla

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Da Revolution

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Post 11 Aug 2012, 15:59

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

yes you can't dance that well anymore, but yes it is easier with horses just running into a group of ranged units
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Lewin

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Post 11 Aug 2012, 16:30

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Leeuwgie wrote:The first replay I watched to search for some examples shows what I mean. In the original the woodcutter will always plant trees in the centre of 4 tiles (in a square form) and that's why I'm used to build roads straight instead of diagonal towards to woodcutter's house. To create as much possible space for the woodcutter to plant trees. But it seems that in the Remake the woodcutter doesn't always use every 4 tile square to plant a tree. Of course this can only be noticed when the woodcutter is idle and waits for the trees to grow. That's why I've added another screen. It's hard to see how much space there is in a replay because of the elevation but I'm pretty sure some show clearly what I mean.

Those places weren't planted because of one of the following reasons:
- Too close to a tree (must be at least 2 tiles away, same as KaM)
- Already some object there like a mushroom/stick (I think maybe in KaM the woodcutter would dig out the other object, so I'll check this)
- Too close to a building (I think in KaM they would plant on the row above a building so I'll check this as well)
You can take a look at where the woodcutter will plant by pressing F11 and dragging the passability slider to "canPlantTrees" (or use the one in the map editor). The highlighted tiles can have a tree planted on the top left of them.

Leeuwgie wrote:Well, I don't have proof of this but it was the first thing I noticed when playing the remake that towers are harder to take down using bowmen/xbows. is anyone in the mood for testing it in the original?

I checked our code and arrows were set to miss buildings a lot, so I've changed that. They should do more damage against buildings now because more of the arrows hit.

Leeuwgie wrote:I said slightly, but I think it's even better. Just look at the way they slice trough militia like never before, hehe. And also against xbows. That's another thing I like to bring up btw. Why does the xbow has 2 armor but is killed way easier then, lets say an axeman who has only 1 armor? The knight most of the time has to hit once to kill a xbow. I can't remember this from the original. And against bowmen it's real slaughter. Has it something to do with the flanking system used in the Remake? I do know knights are better in the Remake because the arrows aren't that accurate against moving targets, which I think is a very good idea. I also think knights are better against pikemen, I've had several times 10-12 knights own 6 pikemen. For some proof of knights slicing through militia look at the shoutcast from Back in the Desert. I once killed a large group of militia (I think it was around 50) with only 10 or 12 knights and I had 2 knights left. On the other hand I've also seen my knights killed way too easy in some games. Ofcourse I can't proof if there is a difference but it feels like it's not the same as in the original. To conclude I think the knight is well balanced and shouldn't be nerfed at all. Remember one single knight cost you 10 coal, 3 iron and 4 grain + the time it takes to produce all this and they have some hard counters.

First of all the armor/attack ratings shown on the unit images are a very rough guide. The difference is that bowmen/crossbowmen have only 1 hitpoint, so they can be killed in one strike if it hits (armor makes it more likely to miss) Serfs have 2 lifepoints (yes they're stronger than archers) and other units all have 3 I think. And yes, these are EXACTLY the same as KaM (we load them out of the unit statistics file from TPR). I clearly remember crossbowmen being killed with 1 strike regularly in the original. It might seem a bit strange but I think it works really well like that, if crossbowmen/bowmen took as long to kill as an axefighter it wouldn't work. I like that archers are deadly but very weak so you have to protect them.
I'm not sure what you mean by flanking system, I guess you mean that damage from the sides and behind is more likely to hit than from the front? That's the way it is in the Remake and the original, it's why you have an advantage if you can surround your enemy. Even with a militia against a knight if you can surround the group so you have militia hitting them in the back as well it does a lot of damage.

Leeuwgie wrote:One other thing. Should the archers always hit the clostest target? Yes, it seems logic but what we see are some players (actually TDL himself is most known for this, hehe) 'dance' around with a single knight on the frontline to distract enemy arrows. I do this myself sometimes, it is smart but it looks a bit unatural thb.

It wouldn't make a big difference to dancing because once an archer picks a target he keeps shooting it until it dies or moves out of range. So if you moved your dancing knight in first, they will keep shooting it until it dies. However, if you repositioned your archers (stopped them firing so they pick new targets) they would start shooting other stuff too. That sounds like a good reason to change it.
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Luki

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Post 11 Aug 2012, 16:44

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Units will still fight diagonally, as long as there isn't a tree in the way or another unit fighting diagonally across that line (which is the same in KaM). Can you make a screenshot to show what you mean? (with F11 -> Debug -> Units turned on so we can see what they are doing)


Yeap, i meant this. But also just trunk bloking units. And in TSK/TPR trees and trunks only bloking walking diagonally, but not fighting.( checked)

I haven't noticed that. The only difference between KaM and the Remake is that if one archer from the group sees an enemy, he will tell all his friends and they all turn around to shoot too. In KaM the one archer would just shoot on his own. This happens when one guy gets bumped out of the way by another unit and ends up facing a different direction.
Is that what you were referring to?


Also meant this. But i hate this. Soldiers wont turn without orders. It kills some fun, when i.e going my knight to attack shooters from behind, and they turning and killing my horse( when player even didnt noticed my horse or thath he has been attacked)

Yes they do pick the closest targets, I'm not sure whether this is a good thing or not. Often the closest targets are the biggest threat, plus a far away target might be walking out of range in which case the arrow/rock will miss him. It also means archers will usually concentrate their fire all onto the same targets so they do more damage to a few units, rather than doing a small amount of damage to many units (who will be restoring their hitpoints anyway)
What do other people think? Closest target or random target?


I vore for random target. It makes game more iteresting in my opinion( and single player lots easier). Dancing with single horse wont be efficient like now, but it isnt main reason. Many times battles look like that: Player A have mass xbows and some meat shield, player B also. So without flanking winner will be guy, who had more meat sheild. But with random target will be possible to move little group of xbows very close to our meele and trying shooting enemy xbows from our infantry behind( like it was in original TSK). Ofc, it will also makes infantry charge more efficient against ranged, which is imho good. I Hope you understand my point.
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Lewin

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Post 12 Aug 2012, 03:21

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Woodcutters:
I have tested in TPR and made the following changes:
- They now plant trees on the row above/left a house (this makes sense, since trees go on the top-left of a tile and a tree planted on the row above/left of a house is actually not too close to the house at all)
- They will now dig out other objects to plant their tree, if the object is removable by a labourer like a flower or stick. "Oh no!" I hear you cry, "Does this mean my woodcutter will dig out all the pretty flowers in my village?!" Well no it doesn't, for I have programmed the woodcutter to also appreciate the value of natural beauty, so he will only dig out flowers/mushrooms/sticks/bushes/rocks IF there is not another empty place or a stump where he can plant his tree instead :) Mostly this means they will be preserved because trees can't be planted right next to each other so a tree planted on an empty spot next to a flower means that flower is "safe" from being planted over. Yay for pretty flowers!
Before and after screenshots:
ImageImage
The green squares mean a tree can be planted on the TOP LEFT of that tile.
Thank you very much To for bringing this to our attention.

Luki wrote:Yeap, i meant this. But also just trunk bloking units. And in TSK/TPR trees and trunks only bloking walking diagonally, but not fighting.( checked)

I checked and yes you're right, I didn't realise that. It looks a bit funny IMO: (and there are denser trees than this)
Image
What does everyone think? I still think we shouldn't allow fighting diagonally through trees, same as walking.

Lewin wrote:I haven't noticed that. The only difference between KaM and the Remake is that if one archer from the group sees an enemy, he will tell all his friends and they all turn around to shoot too. In KaM the one archer would just shoot on his own. This happens when one guy gets bumped out of the way by another unit and ends up facing a different direction.
Is that what you were referring to?
Luki wrote:Also meant this. But i hate this. Soldiers wont turn without orders. It kills some fun, when i.e going my knight to attack shooters from behind, and they turning and killing my horse( when player even didnt noticed my horse or thath he has been attacked)

They only turn if one of the members of the group spots the enemy because he was facing them. IMO this makes more sense than that one guy shooting at them on his own and the others just standing there. (that's how it is in KaM) And it doesn't make much difference anyway, as soon as you shoot 1 arrow at the AI he will become enraged, so it doesn't make much difference if that one guy that was already shooting tells his friends about it too.

Luki wrote:I vore for random target. It makes game more iteresting in my opinion( and single player lots easier). Dancing with single horse wont be efficient like now, but it isnt main reason. Many times battles look like that: Player A have mass xbows and some meat shield, player B also. So without flanking winner will be guy, who had more meat sheild. But with random target will be possible to move little group of xbows very close to our meele and trying shooting enemy xbows from our infantry behind( like it was in original TSK). Ofc, it will also makes infantry charge more efficient against ranged, which is imho good. I Hope you understand my point.

I vote for testing it with random targeting during the beta, with slightly increased archer accuracy to counter-balance the fact that they no longer efficiently all shooting the same guy.
EDIT: I've changed it so there is a switch in the code to choose between random and closest targeting. We'll see how it goes during the beta :)
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Luki

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Post 12 Aug 2012, 12:49

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

About diagonally they should fight in my opinion. And walking trunks( but not trees, however it can be probably hard to do, im right?) It isnt natural for me, that stupid trunk or tree can prevent fight.

About turning. In TSK/TPR even if single archer from group seen enemy and was turned in differnce side than others, he didnt start shooting. For me now shooters are too wilfull. And as i wrote it kills some fun, when after hard mikro they turning on and kill horse ;/
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Lewin

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Post 12 Aug 2012, 13:12

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Luki wrote:About diagonally they should fight in my opinion. And walking trunks( but not trees, however it can be probably hard to do, im right?) It isnt natural for me, that stupid trunk or tree can prevent fight.

Walking through stumps or trees looks pretty stupid, and I don't think fighting looks much better because they're usually just whacking their weapons against the tree. I don't think it's such a big deal.

Luki wrote:About turning. In TSK/TPR even if single archer from group seen enemy and was turned in differnce side than others, he didnt start shooting. For me now shooters are too wilfull. And as i wrote it kills some fun, when after hard mikro they turning on and kill horse ;/

Okay you're right, I tested it. But I think they only did it like that for optimisation (only the leader scans for targets because it takes more CPU time to check from all archers, which wasn't possible back in 1998) I think if one archer sees the enemy he'll start shooting and tell all his friends. Sneaking up behind archers shouldn't be too easy, and usually they're all lined up properly anyway.
What do other people think?
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Krom

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Post 13 Aug 2012, 05:33

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

I agree with Lewin: if one archer sees an enemy he should start shooting and alert all his idling friends.
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Luki

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Post 13 Aug 2012, 09:27

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Well, but if group will be even little diffuse like after feed and archers will be turned each other random it will be never possible to sneak them, cause always they will fire.
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Krom

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Post 13 Aug 2012, 09:58

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

@Luki: Sneaking AI will be possible since it always tries to keep groups well aligned.
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Lewin

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Post 13 Aug 2012, 11:12

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Luki wrote:Well, but if group will be even little diffuse like after feed and archers will be turned each other random it will be never possible to sneak them, cause always they will fire.

Sneaking up unnoticed on archers shouldn't be too easy anyway. And even if they do start firing at you, if you have some armour and a few units you'll reach them and then they'll stop shooting.
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Luki

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Post 13 Aug 2012, 11:27

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

@Krom, Lewin: Ofc, but few units are easier to notice on map while moving instead 1-2. And player who dont protect shooters wisely should be punished ;]

Anyway it just my opinion, probably others have different ;]
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Leeuwgie

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Post 15 Aug 2012, 13:18

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Thanks for restoring the woodcutter's behavior back to what it was in the original. I really think it will make a huge difference ingame.
The basic counter against towers are arrows, although there are faster ways to take it down it's good to hear this is also fixed now.
About changing the archers targeting the closest unit: I like the idea very much, it makes things like flanking enemy troops and protecting your own archers with melee troops (instead of more archers) even more important.

And another suggestion. They should call this game Merchants and Knights because most players use 90% or so of their time building and the rest for fighting. In other words, If you are a very good basebuilder but you can't manage your troops well enough you basicly lost already. I can't remember who but I heard someone say some time ago you were also working on the use of hotkeys for this game. I think it will improve the gameplay a lot with some basic hotkeys. If the troops could be numbered 1-9 (like first group of archers 1, second group 2, first melee group 3, second melee group 4 and horses 5 for instance) it would be much easier to micro them around. I heard other people complain about this too so if it's possible to add some hotkeys it would be very much appreciated.

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Lewin

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Post 15 Aug 2012, 13:32

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Hot keys have already been added, they'll be in the next version. You select a unit/house, then press CTRL+1 to assign that unit/house to hotkey 1. Then whenever you press 1 that unit/house will be selected. We included houses as well as units so you could make your schools/barracks be on hot keys too if you find yourself using them a lot. All the numbers from 0 to 9 can be used. Oh, and if you press the hotkey twice (so press 1 then 1 again) it will center your screen on that unit/house. So lets say you want to equips some soldiers, press the hotkey you assigned to your barracks and it will be selected so you can equip soldiers without leaving whatever you are looking at. If you want to zoom to your barracks, press it twice. Having tested it in-game I'd have to say it's really nice to use!

I agree, the other changes like the woodcutter are definitely improvements, it's great that the community can bring stuff like this to our attention! :)
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Leeuwgie

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Post 15 Aug 2012, 15:53

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Lewin wrote: Hot keys have already been added, they'll be in the next version.


Nice to hear, I didn't know it involved units also.

Lewin wrote:it's great that the community can bring stuff like this to our attention! :)


Well, I guess it tells something about how much we like your work. Btw, if I remember right you said some months ago that the new release will be published somewhere in september. That is slightly too optimistic of course, but when can we expect another update approximately?
No matter what, always keep smiling ~ Bassie (from Bassie & Adriaan)
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`Maurice

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Post 15 Aug 2012, 15:57

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

i would like to know that aswell ^
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