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Differences between remake and vanilla

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logic

Post 03 Jul 2012, 19:55

Differences between remake and vanilla

Hej.
Just wanted to ask if someone would be so kind and summarize what the differences in gameplay between k&m and the remake are at this point?
Thanks in advance.
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FeyBart

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Post 04 Jul 2012, 05:22

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

logic wrote:Hej.
Just wanted to ask if someone would be so kind and summarize what the differences in gameplay between k&m and the remake are at this point?
Thanks in advance.
First of all, there's the multiplayer, there are many more maps, there are better AI's, there are different units, various bug fixes, there are different buildings, and I don't quite think it stops right there.
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Da Revolution

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Post 04 Jul 2012, 07:00

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Improved intelligence of working units.
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Leeuwgie

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Post 10 Aug 2012, 15:21

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Things I noticed:

In the original archers facing to the north had the advantage over archers facing to the south (by 1 tile), this is the most important thing fixed in the remake I think so we have a balanced game now.

There is in the remake more time before your serfs need to visit the inn.

In the remake you can build a market to trade for recourses.

Woodcutters somehow need way more space then in the original. I wonder why.

Towers in the remake are way better against arrows.

In the remake it looks like you need more farms because the serfs distribute grain to the closest stable/pigfarm/mill even if you use the ingame settings.

Knights are slightly better then in the original.

In the remake things run much smoother, so you build faster.

There are more things but this is all I can remember for the moment.
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Lewin

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Post 10 Aug 2012, 16:20

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Leeuwgie wrote:There is in the remake more time before your serfs need to visit the inn.

This is "fixed" in the next release, it now matches KaM TPR.

Leeuwgie wrote:Woodcutters somehow need way more space then in the original. I wonder why.

Could you (or anyone) please make some screenshots of this? My guess is our woodcutter doesn't plant trees as densely, I'd like to see what the problem is.

Leeuwgie wrote:Towers in the remake are way better against arrows.

I didn't know this. My only guess is that in the Remake arrows can miss their target sometimes, but I thought this happened in KaM too because I often remember my soldiers dying when attacking a house and shooting at it at the same time. It feels about the same as KaM TPR to me, can you explain what is different?

Leeuwgie wrote:In the remake it looks like you need more farms because the serfs distribute grain to the closest stable/pigfarm/mill even if you use the ingame settings.

The same thing happened a lot in KaM too. I've tweaked it since the last release so it should have a direct influence on deliveries. Please let us know what you think of this during the beta testing.

Leeuwgie wrote:Knights are slightly better then in the original.

I see no reason why this would be the case, we use the exact same unit values from KaM TPR. Can you elaborate please?
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stijn263

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Post 10 Aug 2012, 16:25

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

- Serfs can not walk on ugly diagonal roads anymore (be careful with the woodcuttershut)

- Serfs can only deliver goods to building sites when standing right in front of the building (instead of 'diagonal delivery')

- Serfs no longer drop the stone they were delivering to a road builder when their path is blocked by the guy digging the building area (a very annoying bug in the original game)

- When you send a group of units, they all find their own path instead of just following the leaders' path.

To wrote:There are more things but this is all I can remember for the moment.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 10 Aug 2012, 17:16

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

As soon as I read To's post I've been looking at woodcutters in TPR. I haven't tested it thoroughly but they seem to plant trees the same way as they do in Remake (with 4 free tiles around them). Only if you have multiple woodcutters that want to place trees next to each other at the same time you'll have only 1 tile between the trees instead of 2. The woodcutters did seem to cut and plant trees in the same radius as in Remake if they have to, but they usually plant trees closer to their houses because there is no need to plant further away (because some trees are ready to be cut by then). I'm sure you have measered this, but it looks like trees are groing faster in TPR. Have you measered growth time for every tree seperately? I noticed a cypress which was planted as 4th but was cut first, while the 3 trees that were planted before it still had to grow a phase.
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Luki

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Post 10 Aug 2012, 18:11

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

No one wrote important thing: In Remake no more idle units which while battle just standing and received hits without any reaction. In my opinion is one of best change.

Another battle change( however negative) is that now units often dont want fight diagonally. And all ranged units shooting closest units( very innefective thing, especially in single player, only good when enemy meelee attacking your ranged) and often turn on to shoot enemy without any order( alsso very bad in single player, when you dont want engage some enemies). Ranged units attacking buildings shooting slower than in TPR and TSK. And im not sure, but now towers also using stone slower than in TSK/TPR.

About stronger knights- i have opposite opinion than To. Maybe they fight axefigters, militia, barbs and scouts better, but also they are weaker vs pikes, lances. Also i noticed, that now swordmen making more loses to knights( they still winning, but with more own loses), than in TSk/TPR.

Another what i notived, is that now axefighters are better vs pikes than in TPr/TSk. I remember situation( and few similar), when my 12 axefigters killed 12 pikes with just 5 own loses( fighting face to face).

If i will remind more, i will edit post.
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Lewin

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Post 11 Aug 2012, 06:13

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

The Dark Lord wrote:Have you measered growth time for every tree seperately? I noticed a cypress which was planted as 4th but was cut first, while the 3 trees that were planted before it still had to grow a phase.

All trees grow at the same rate in the KaM Remake, and Krom measured it years ago. I don't see why they would grow at different rates in KaM. I think that tree/field ages only update occasionally to save CPU time (we've done this too, each tile gets checked approximately every 20 seconds so it only has to process a small number of tiles per second rather than the whole map). You might have noticed in KaM corn that was all planted at different times will suddenly grow in a row at about the same time, I think this is why.

If someone would like to measure the growth rates for trees, make sure you measure each type of tree more than once in different positions so we know it's not just due to tiles updating irregularly. I'd be interested to see the results.

Luki wrote:Another battle change( however negative) is that now units often dont want fight diagonally.

Units will still fight diagonally, as long as there isn't a tree in the way or another unit fighting diagonally across that line (which is the same in KaM). Can you make a screenshot to show what you mean? (with F11 -> Debug -> Units turned on so we can see what they are doing)

Luki wrote:And all ranged units shooting closest units( very innefective thing, especially in single player, only good when enemy meelee attacking your ranged)

Yes they do pick the closest targets, I'm not sure whether this is a good thing or not. Often the closest targets are the biggest threat, plus a far away target might be walking out of range in which case the arrow/rock will miss him. It also means archers will usually concentrate their fire all onto the same targets so they do more damage to a few units, rather than doing a small amount of damage to many units (who will be restoring their hitpoints anyway)
What do other people think? Closest target or random target?

Luki wrote:and often turn on to shoot enemy without any order( alsso very bad in single player, when you dont want engage some enemies).

I haven't noticed that. The only difference between KaM and the Remake is that if one archer from the group sees an enemy, he will tell all his friends and they all turn around to shoot too. In KaM the one archer would just shoot on his own. This happens when one guy gets bumped out of the way by another unit and ends up facing a different direction.
Is that what you were referring to?

Luki wrote:Ranged units attacking buildings shooting slower than in TPR and TSK. And im not sure, but now towers also using stone slower than in TSK/TPR.

I've made ranged units less likely to miss buildings now, the scatter appeared to be set much too high against buildings so we'll see how it goes in the next version. Thanks for alerting us.

Luki wrote:About stronger knights- i have opposite opinion than To. Maybe they fight axefigters, militia, barbs and scouts better, but also they are weaker vs pikes, lances. Also i noticed, that now swordmen making more loses to knights( they still winning, but with more own loses), than in TSk/TPR.

Another what i notived, is that now axefighters are better vs pikes than in TPr/TSk. I remember situation( and few similar), when my 12 axefigters killed 12 pikes with just 5 own loses( fighting face to face).

I don't see why this would be the case. We use the exact unit statistics from KaM, although of course we don't know exactly how the fighting system works. It's a very hard thing to test/measure.
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Post 11 Aug 2012, 11:46

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Lewin wrote:What do other people think? Closest target or random target?

I prefer closest target, very useful if your archers are threatened by melee units, I often manage to keep them away if the attack isn't organized, and it wouldn't be the case if they attacked random targets (the closest units would survive eventually and kill your archers)
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The Dark Lord

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Post 11 Aug 2012, 12:06

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

I'm not so sure, random targeting would make melee units more useful.
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Da Revolution

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Post 11 Aug 2012, 12:42

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

i think it should be tested. Like Dark said it can make other units more useful again.
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Lewin

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Post 11 Aug 2012, 13:42

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Da Revolution wrote:i think it should be tested. Like Dark said it can make other units more useful again.

It would also make archers less useful without directly weakening them, so we could probably increase their accuracy closer to KaM if their targeting was random. We should test it during the beta :)
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Leeuwgie

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Post 11 Aug 2012, 15:36

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Leeuwgie wrote:Woodcutters somehow need way more space then in the original. I wonder why.

Lewin wrote: Could you (or anyone) please make some screenshots of this? My guess is our woodcutter doesn't plant trees as densely, I'd like to see what the problem is.


The first replay I watched to search for some examples shows what I mean. In the original the woodcutter will always plant trees in the centre of 4 tiles (in a square form) and that's why I'm used to build roads straight instead of diagonal towards to woodcutter's house. To create as much possible space for the woodcutter to plant trees. But it seems that in the Remake the woodcutter doesn't always use every 4 tile square to plant a tree. Of course this can only be noticed when the woodcutter is idle and waits for the trees to grow. That's why I've added another screen. It's hard to see how much space there is in a replay because of the elevation but I'm pretty sure some show clearly what I mean.

screen 1:
Image

screen 2:
Image

Leeuwgie wrote:Towers in the remake are way better against arrows.

Lewin wrote: I didn't know this. My only guess is that in the Remake arrows can miss their target sometimes, but I thought this happened in KaM too because I often remember my soldiers dying when attacking a house and shooting at it at the same time. It feels about the same as KaM TPR to me, can you explain what is different?


Well, I don't have proof of this but it was the first thing I noticed when playing the remake that towers are harder to take down using bowmen/xbows. is anyone in the mood for testing it in the original?

Leeuwgie wrote:In the remake it looks like you need more farms because the serfs distribute grain to the closest stable/pigfarm/mill even if you use the ingame settings.

Lewin wrote: The same thing happened a lot in KaM too. I've tweaked it since the last release so it should have a direct influence on deliveries. Please let us know what you think of this during the beta testing.


In the Remake it's common that the mill that is the most far away from the farms doesn't receive any grain while in the original that same mill would get some (but less ofcourse). It doesn't bother me at all, but yes you just need more farms in the Remake.

Leeuwgie wrote:Knights are slightly better then in the original.

Lewin wrote: I see no reason why this would be the case, we use the exact same unit values from KaM TPR. Can you elaborate please?


I said slightly, but I think it's even better. Just look at the way they slice trough militia like never before, hehe. And also against xbows. That's another thing I like to bring up btw. Why does the xbow has 2 armor but is killed way easier then, lets say an axeman who has only 1 armor? The knight most of the time has to hit once to kill a xbow. I can't remember this from the original. And against bowmen it's real slaughter. Has it something to do with the flanking system used in the Remake? I do know knights are better in the Remake because the arrows aren't that accurate against moving targets, which I think is a very good idea. I also think knights are better against pikemen, I've had several times 10-12 knights own 6 pikemen. For some proof of knights slicing through militia look at the shoutcast from Back in the Desert. I once killed a large group of militia (I think it was around 50) with only 10 or 12 knights and I had 2 knights left. On the other hand I've also seen my knights killed way too easy in some games. Ofcourse I can't proof if there is a difference but it feels like it's not the same as in the original. To conclude I think the knight is well balanced and shouldn't be nerfed at all. Remember one single knight cost you 10 coal, 3 iron and 4 grain + the time it takes to produce all this and they have some hard counters.

One other thing. Should the archers always hit the clostest target? Yes, it seems logic but what we see are some players (actually TDL himself is most known for this, hehe) 'dance' around with a single knight on the frontline to distract enemy arrows. I do this myself sometimes, it is smart but it looks a bit unatural thb.

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The Dark Lord

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Post 11 Aug 2012, 15:57

Re: Differences between remake and vanilla

Leeuwgie wrote:One other thing. Should the archers always hit the clostest target? Yes, it seems logic but what we see are some players (actually TDL himself is most known for this, hehe) 'dance' around with a single knight on the frontline to distract enemy arrows. I do this myself sometimes, it is smart but it looks a bit unatural thb.


Oh my, you're right! That won't work anymore (or at least less) when archers target units randomly! I suggest we just let it be... :P
Seriously though, I agree it is unnatural. But sometimes it is the only way to make the enemy retreat, especially if his army is stronger than yours. If you send melee units to attack the archers, he'll simply retreat his archers and send his melee units forward. And it's just a great way of killing archers without losing archers of your own. I love killing archers.
I don't mind if this doesn't work as good anymore, I'll just have to use more units to dance to take at least SOME hits or I'll have to come up with something else.

Btw, could it be that the woodcutters don't place trees there because there are other objects already? I don't see anything above the sawmill but that might be 'too close' to the building.
Last edited by The Dark Lord on 11 Aug 2012, 16:00, edited 1 time in total.
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