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"Where are the scouts?"

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vovets1

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Post 15 Sep 2017, 17:59

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

As i wrote before, slowing down knights will allow storming infantry to catch them. Besides this is illogical, this is really breaking the system.

Where are the scouts? in the rubbish shoot :D
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Ben

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Post 15 Sep 2017, 23:14

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

Any suggestion to slow any mechanic in KaM even further is a bad idea in my opinion.
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thunder

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Post 16 Sep 2017, 00:38

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

Ben wrote:Any suggestion to slow any mechanic in KaM even further is a bad idea in my opinion.

no worry I know it. PLayers are like mass iron stuffs at pt. That is measuring who has larger goldentool.
Anyway I rather prefer maps and locs with 2mines. Different tastes.
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vovets1

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Post 16 Sep 2017, 07:42

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

Ben wrote:Any suggestion to slow any mechanic in KaM even further is a bad idea in my opinion.


But what about other variant mentioned in this topic, which suggest not to slow down, but to speed up.
Here were upgrading scout's movespeed/vision (speed includes vision to be honest), even upgrading attack speed, dividing types of horses in stables, when current type will be used for knights, and new cheaper one for scouts.
Scout really needs to comeback to the game, and the only thing i agree with Thunder is that we can't leave scout as he is now, he should be changed into something better.
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thunder

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Post 16 Sep 2017, 09:02

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

vovets1 wrote:
Ben wrote:Any suggestion to slow any mechanic in KaM even further is a bad idea in my opinion.

Scout really needs to comeback to the game, and the only thing i agree with Thunder is that we can't leave scout as he is now, he should be changed into something better.

Thunder is beilieveing the units balance are fine :wink:

If the scouts really need to come back, than the other sh...y units should come back too. Scouts are good in late game. Lots of depending on what strategies the players choosing. I really disagree to modifying strenght of any units now. And this topic is also present how the players thinking about the possibilities. Why would give more vision for a balanced troops, why not give less for anothers? For example give 15tiles vision for scouts. PLease tell me the truth. Would you spend that horse for a weak units? Would you make it only for the vision on a map what you know very well? On a map where you know where exactly the troops will be standing and on a map where exactly will know there be towers etc... Many time players know without visions there is the main army of the player. Of course it is not me.

We heard and read lots of possible solutions ways but the basic sentence the units are balanced now. :wink: And hard to arguing with this. Enough if you check the TSK troops parameters.

Rather we'd have to say that the leather based troops are not an early game category or option. (except bows) And the late game is not really evident when starting in time. Well 8-10minutes games after PT.... there are no real late game. Same with the market. 'late game building', yes, late game building, but common no lategame there and in early game it is totally useless so you don't see there good market games. Only 5-10%of the games are longer than 60+20minutes. Still the gap between the iron and leather troops's strength is huge.If you want to see more leather in early games and more strategy variations, you just need less iron per minute on the maps, or less locations with not infinty iron mines.(it means less than 200iron ore per locations for a 90-100minute game) And than the late game is coming much-much earlier so more mass axefighters pikes xbows and lancers will be on the screen. (or less food in the storehouse :wink: )

Make maps where the scout is a good option;) or give possibility to other strategies to scouts be good option. Make leather only maps...oh that would not be popular one because players want to see huge unit selection. etc...trends... The trend is the maps are good if there is possibility for making 80troops until PT.

A little question because I don't have huge replay archive about this very popular map: How frequently do you see making scouts on leather only locations on Rich Land?
On those locations also rather prefer few knights, true?

Maybe To's new no starting food ideawould be the key for the whole situation? I really beilive it is not unit balance question. Rather would have to find the economical reasons. But for that would have to know the game from every perspective.

Anyway agree, slowing down the iron mining time would increase playing maps where 4++iron mines are on locations. Actually it would make a little bit more cost from the building perspective and would get later the maximum of the production of iron.

Anyway if the scout has popularity problems than the xbows has too, the lancers, the axefighters and milities has too...Simply because rock- paper- scissors is not working in the economy side.
From my point of view of course.
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vovets1

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Post 16 Sep 2017, 11:32

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

I suspect you don't read my whole posts, because i write everywhere that upgrading vision is useless. I want to notice that i have some patient to read whole your massive posts.

I can't understand why don't you play e.g. pt 75 x1x1, or even more, like 90-120? With this settings you will have a lot of leather, and maybe so much horses that they will higher in amount than even iron sets (armor+shield+sword), so you will equip even scouts, becides other leather units. Then your late game will appear more often. No need to fix iron, no need in special ironless maps, just higher pt. Ok, maybe you need map with a lot of space both for building and fighting, but not ironless or with low amount of iron.

8/9 units of barracks are balanced, because they can release their value in fight for their cost, and they can do it in the 1st hour of a game. And only scout can't. Horses are expencive, but battle parametrs of scout are weak for that cost, abcolutely can't competite with knight.
I'll write here type if units, when existing of one will make you equip another.

(1) Militia is the main unit in the beginning, but even in late he can be used to empty towers, for some sabotages in enemy's town, if they will get there unnoticed.
But only militia is not enough, then here comes iron units, which you can start producing earlier than leather. The best options there is (2) xbows and (3) pikes. Xbows can kill milita easily, pikes can live under xbows long enough, and pikes are more numerous than swords (x1.5 times), so they can swords easily (e.g. 15 pikes are stronger than 10 swords). Ofc if you have some plans with capturing narrow passages, there swords will be better, but mainly pikes.
Militia, xbows and pikes - basic pack of 35pt game.
Time goes on, corn grows, your town needs some food, becides mill and bakery you can place so leather comes to play. Main leather unit - (4) bowman, because of his attack speed (changed statistic, heh). Finally they appear in so huge number, that pikes can't cope with them, and you need more powerful infantry. Welcome, (5) swords.
But corn continues to grow, and you can build stables. Ofc here comes (6) knight as a universal unit, whick can tank, attack flanks, scout, attack from behind. Player need to counter them, or at least protect your rear. When big part of your iron goes for swords and knights, pikes mainly are too expencive and unefficient to counter knights (but not everytime ofc), and (7) spears are good and cheap counter.
If you make too much bows, they couldn't shoot at once. Because of this, axes (8 ) is very good option, because in 70-80 minute they can be numerous enough, and in fight more effective than spears.
Bows, swords, knights, spears and axes - basic pack of 60 pt game. Xbows can appear there in special tactic with a lot of them, some players like it. Pikes can appear if you know that yor opponent is a fan of horses, e.g. build 2 stables during pt. But they aren't useless, they are main units on 35 at least.
I'll repeat your question: where are the scouts? Scouts can appear only if you build 3 (not even 2) or more stables, or when your iron will end, and this happens later than 150 minutes. Both of this conditions are close to be impossible for 60 pt game, rare for 90, maybe common for 120 pt, but this gamemode is very unpopular because of very high duration of the game (i mean on x1 speed). To be honest, if a have out of iron core, i prefer to change in marker something for iron core to continue producing knigths, instead of making scouts
There're no maps when scouts in GOOD option. Compelled - yes. Good - no.

I hope you'll read my post attentively, but without massive post, just answer: why can't you play with higher pt, where leather is more numerous, therefore powerful and in meta?
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thunder

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Post 21 Sep 2017, 20:21

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

No worry, I'm reading carfully. But really giving more speed and vision is useless... :mrgreen: trololo. Anyway not only these ideas have nosense.

The real question is not why am I not playing longer PT games. //Anyway because most of the classical maps are not accept 200units per players on the battle field. Why not playing fast PT? // Because loosing feeling of controlling. Still not this is the question. Maybe not playing every game mode, but that is not means not have clue about it.;)

Does the scouts really have problems? Only because not in early game? From this point of view every game mode has weakness. For example the zero PT game not forcing making mass swordmans rather focusing on very fast milites.
My opinion is a good and optimal pt is somewhere is between arouns50-65minutes. Depends of the maps. Under this PT the players be able to create a solid village with few groups of troops. Not too less not too much. Enjoyable playing with them with this size armyies.

My opinion is the unit balance is okay. Scout is also fine.
Comparing knights and scouts are useless. One common is there the horse. nothing else. One is leather one is iron. This comparing almost as useless as the swormand-axefighter. Maybe can talking about the unit's prives but that is almost fine too.

Scouts can appear only if you build 3 (not even 2) or more stables

It means 6farms true? :rolleyes: and still need leather and the other stuffs...Even two stables are not popular, even for knights either. Okay make it over 90minutes PT games.

Say the scout is weak and this is why not popular.
Somebody say the scout is okay.
But One thing is common. The scouts are missing from playable normal PT games. Not a real option. Except few maps. The games are simply not enough long to the scouts step on the field.
But from this point of view the axefighter has the same problem too.

Somewhere I already posted to make the sword making time a bit longer. Then still the same amount of iron would be there but making more sword would need a second weaponry too or third one. So the players would feel the real cost of knights.
Still strenght of the mass swordman and knights combo is uncompareable with other strategies on level of economy.

I know the game is using the original TSK TPR values, but those were really balanced values for multiplayer games (?)

Sorry for the long post. But good to write long post about useless and nnecesarry things. :wink:
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vovets1

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Post 22 Sep 2017, 00:49

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

I think that size of classic maps is not the real reason why don'y you play with high pt ;) Especially with your skills of drawing maps.

You skillfully dodge my main questions and statements that i write here. That example with swords on 0pt game is ridiculous, i wrote in previous post when it comes to play, and on 0 pt game you can see them, if the game is long enough. Don't think that short pt games are always short. Sometimes they are longer that 60 pt ( i had some 0pt games for 70 minutes and 35 pt for 120 mins), so watching there such troops is normal. But scout appears too late for almost every pt. Because there is big difference between 35-50 minute and 150.

And i don't know when you'll understand, that problem is not in their late appearance, but because they can ONLY appear when you can't produce knights. Only in this case. When you can - you will do knights. This is the thing that i can't stand.
I agree that axes could have such problem too, but axes don't require horse, so they are cheap enough to appear, and all in all, we see axes in games. I wrote why.

PT can't be normal, optimal, etc. PT. PT is just a helper, which can skip some game stages. When 0-35 is unplayable because of market, it skips unplayable part. When you set 60, you skip militia+iron stage, and get iron+leather (not leather+iron). When you set 80, you have leather+iron. And you choose which you want.

We both agree that something should be changed, no need to write in every post about it.
But to name comparing scout and knight useless... It doesn't matter that in equipment their common element is horse, and the others are different. Main thing is what they do after equipment.

Your suggestion about making swords longer is better than making all iron troops longer (when you make iron core mining longer), but that's still not enough. This is just a small inconvenience for those who make knights. Players just can't make very big amount of horses during 0-70 pt, because they have to pay attention to food, that's because you seldom see 2 stables. So whey will have enough swords anyway, because amount of horses is not big too. E.g. on 60 pt game players will have 20 swords instead of 30 (very optimistic version) and 5-20 horses depends on player's playstyle. Again only knights.

You call speed up "useless" and "have no sense". To be honest, i thought that speed up is too imba for you, or too different from KaM style, but here you call it useless. After some games with scouts with upgraded speed i can say that they are very good, so i can't agree with you at all. Just as i wrote here many times: good scouting, good dancing (better than knight), and possibility of harassing rears, so your opponent have to protect everything. Such scouts are good addition to your army.
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Tiank

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Post 22 Sep 2017, 07:11

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

I agree with vovets when it comes to unit usage and that Scouts are only used when player can't make any more knights (no more iron on map). I also agree with his previous post, when he wrotes step by step about every unit and how it is used in a certain game time. All type of units except Scouts can be seen at 60 PT game and they will be more or less effective. But because of long production chain for Scouts (corn, horses, leather, axes, shields) and their lower attack and defence than Knights, they are not worth making.

So, we have one option - vovets' suggestion - make Scouts faster. I suggest second option - make Scouts cheaper via making horses for them cost less (3 corn) and making those horses (only for Scouts) bit faster. Right now with one Stable functioning at 30th minute, we're gonna have about 15 horses. With 3 corn cost it should be around 19. By making it a bit faster we could achieve above 20 Scouts, which is pretty good imo (all with only one stable). It should open a possibility to make leahter-focused build, where you have around 30 Scouts (with 2 stables, and still you need only 2 swine farms to make such amount of leather) around 15 lances (as a support) and around 30 Xbows (for PT there would be only 1 Armor smithy and 1 weapon smithy needed to have such an amount), making such build an interesting counter for standard Swords-Knights-Bows combo.
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thunder

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Post 22 Sep 2017, 08:33

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

:D
So we are here. We agree in many things, but disagree about the solutions and ways because wee see different aspects of this beautiful game.

that problem is not in their late appearance.

Well, a tiny bit disagree. The Scout is the last on this equip list. You discribed it which unit step up when. (Milities-xbow-pikes-leather etc....)
In short PT game modes include all under 90min not see this type of unit because no real reason to make it and still knights seems better option.(except on few maps where the iron is very limitated) Even knights needs smaller economy and still easier to spam larger and stronger armies with them.
Described by you and Tiank too.

So, we have one option - vovets' suggestion - make Scouts faster.

There are many options. But here I would ask why not the knights be slower? I mean normal walking speed is 1, knights be 1,25 and the scout stay 1,5. Something like this. I don't know these parameters in the source code. (maybe 1-1,5-2? :? )
Anyway making scouts more usefull maybe give them a bit more basic damage?
The vision on well known map without fog of war is not priority. I mean vision is necesarry, but I m not sure i would choose mass scouts only because they see 3 tiles more. The speed can be good idea if knights'd be slower. No need more faster units then we have now.
Another solution could be implementing new troops which offer new ways and then the diversity of the game would change;)
So there are several possibilities.

make Scouts cheaper

Would you spent +1corn to make horses to upgrade your swordmans?
What about this if we talk about prices and about this idea? Making a bigger gap to feel the price difference between the two type of horses?
3corn horses for scouts?
5corns horses for knights?
100-140corn average under 60min. ~80 goes for leather jacket(40pcs) the rest could go for horses. It means 25-30horses for scouts or 10-12 for knights. With these prices already would say, yes this sound is good.

But would need a new stable mechanism to do this and maybe new horse animations too:S? From this point of view complicated.
Maybe a stable with Red roof would be the easiest? :mrgreen:

PT can't be normal

Agree, different tastes. So in my opinion it can be Optimal.

We both agree that something should be changed, no need to write in every post about it.

Need to check the conrete reasons, the source of the problem after looking for a good solution. But I still think the strenght -call balance- of the units are fine and the problem is in the economy with the imba production times.

Anyway doesn't matter what changes looking for... I'm sure in one thing... To act would need to break some of the TSK/TPR traditions and values or parameters...
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Tiank

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Post 22 Sep 2017, 09:04

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

thunder wrote:But would need a new stable mechanism to do this and maybe new horse animations too:S? From this point of view complicated.
Maybe a stable with Red roof would be the easiest?
Why? There's no need for anything more, than option in Stable (like a checkbox) to choose between horses for Scouts and horses for Knights (seperately, so you can't have both at the same time). And also maybe different icon in stable for horse (Knights have white icon, Scouts have brown, so just make white horse icon which should be pretty easy). Icon in Barracks (and everywhere except Stable) would stay the same. About trading in Market for horses - it'd only make trading for Scouts harder, but I don't see that as an issue, because trading for horses in Market is not that useful anyway.

Just to be clear - I don't like the idea of changing speed of Scouts, it seems as too big of a change. Same goes for changing Knights' speed. Imho, changin horses' cost for Scouts is the less invasive change that can be made, while still making Scouts useful. Imagine an army, where you have 30 Scouts, some lances and 30 Xbows against 30 Swords, some knights and 30 Bows. Seems pretty balanced in many ways, as Scouts are really mobile and can take some damage against bows (thanks to shields and +1 armor coming from horses) but Knights on other side can be pretty destructive when flanking, even in small numbers. Of course, Scouts are pretty weak against pikes, so it would force more players to have them in their army compositions. It's an overall win imo :D
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vovets1

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Post 22 Sep 2017, 09:34

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

Tiank wrote:I agree with vovets when it comes to unit usage and that Scouts are only used when player can't make any more knights (no more iron on map). I also agree with his previous post, when he wrotes step by step about every unit and how it is used in a certain game time. All type of units except Scouts can be seen at 60 PT game and they will be more or less effective. But because of long production chain for Scouts (corn, horses, leather, axes, shields) and their lower attack and defence than Knights, they are not worth making.

So, we have one option - vovets' suggestion - make Scouts faster. I suggest second option - make Scouts cheaper via making horses for them cost less (3 corn) and making those horses (only for Scouts) bit faster. Right now with one Stable functioning at 30th minute, we're gonna have about 15 horses. With 3 corn cost it should be around 19. By making it a bit faster we could achieve above 20 Scouts, which is pretty good imo (all with only one stable). It should open a possibility to make leahter-focused build, where you have around 30 Scouts (with 2 stables, and still you need only 2 swine farms to make such amount of leather) around 15 lances (as a support) and around 30 Xbows (for PT there would be only 1 Armor smithy and 1 weapon smithy needed to have such an amount), making such build an interesting counter for standard Swords-Knights-Bows combo.


Your combined variant of speed upped scout and horses for them for 2 corn is not that good, imho. We'll get units which won't be numerous enough and fast enough, so they won't create a new strategy, nor good addition to current one. Fast scout is addition mainly. Numerous scouts is trying to make new strat. 20 is not that much, but 30 is much better, especially from 1 stables. With 30 scouts we really can do something. 30 scouts + 35 xbows + 15 pikes seems good.

So, i see 2 desicion: upgrade move speed and creation 2nd type of horses for scouts which costs 2 corn. Now horses faster than infantry slightly more than 1,5 times. I tested x2 speed, and that was enough. Main disadvantage of 2nd variant is that then axes can be out of game, because their feature - multiplicity - will be got by scouts, because in sword-knight attitude knights are better, but you don't have enough horses without 2 stables or more, so you equip swods. With so cheap horse for scout i am afraid that there will be no such problem in axe-scout attitude. So we just replace units, but not delete the problem.

That's why i am for upgrading move speed. Not that huge change for game. And as for original TSK - i am confident that there balance or wasn't good, or was good for very long games like in campaigh. Swords worse than pikes, weak bows, scouts, even knights. Remember 4179, with that xbow+militia meta. That was balance close to tsk, exclude not so dispersion when ranged shoot (in tsk that was very big, more than in remake). Think about it.

thunder wrote:
So, we have one option - vovets' suggestion - make Scouts faster.

There are many options. But here I would ask why not the knights be slower? I mean normal walking speed is 1, knights be 1,25 and the scout stay 1,5. Something like this. I don't know these parameters in the source code. (maybe 1-1,5-2? :? )

I write it here for the 3rd time: because then storming infantry will catch this knights. Do you really want to watch this?
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thunder

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Post 22 Sep 2017, 09:59

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

I write it here for the 3rd time: because then storming infantry will catch this knights. Do you really want to watch this?

Well, The knight doesn't really have weakness. They are quite good in everything without real enemy. Scouting, Flanking, Tanking, Manoeuvring, Dancing- and not in the Viennese Waltz type of dancing:D, but who knows, true?
Even pikes are not enoguh good vs them in every case. Last time have seen 6knights vs 6 pikes ...0 knight dead vs that group of pikes...Okay lots of depends of the formation and situations... but really the knight from an aspection seems really universal troop(not cheap one of course). So I could imagine a speciel weakness to them. Then maybe scouts would be better option for dancing even if has less shield than a knight.
So I would not delete this slows down option either from the list. Even if then the knights would be bit more catchabe. :wink:
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vovets1

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Post 22 Sep 2017, 11:59

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

thunder wrote:
I write it here for the 3rd time: because then storming infantry will catch this knights. Do you really want to watch this?

Well, The knight doesn't really have weakness. They are quite good in everything without real enemy. Scouting, Flanking, Tanking, Manoeuvring, Dancing- and not in the Viennese Waltz type of dancing:D, but who knows, true?
Even pikes are not enoguh good vs them in every case. Last time have seen 6knights vs 6 pikes ...0 knight dead vs that group of pikes...Okay lots of depends of the formation and situations... but really the knight from an aspection seems really universal troop(not cheap one of course). So I could imagine a speciel weakness to them. Then maybe scouts would be better option for dancing even if has less shield than a knight.
So I would not delete this slows down option either from the list. Even if then the knights would be bit more catchabe. :wink:


Fast scout will assigh dancing, scouting and behind attacks, knights will stay with tanking and flanking. But without catchable knights, which look ridiculous.
Fast scouts will make players pay even more attention to anti-horse units, and that is not bad. Probably they will even stay on entrances to your town, because towers aren't always enough to stop fast scout. And that is not bad too.
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thunder

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Post 31 Oct 2017, 11:39

Re: "Where are the scouts?"

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