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Thoughs after shoutcasts

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thunder

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Moorbach's Guard

Posts: 1020

Joined: 15 Apr 2012, 12:11

Location: In the Market

KaM Skill Level: Fair

Post 07 Dec 2016, 20:09

Thoughs after shoutcasts

Heyho!
Today I watched a TO's shoutcast and after still another two. The first was the 'The powah building' from almost the current version and after some shoutcast from the older releases. WEll in the first shoutcast TO gave some nice questions and I started to think on those and under these I got some from myself also.
These type of questions:
1.-Why Jero's style is not effective anymore? (byTo)
2.-Who doesn't have stable/-s?(byTo)
3.-Why the games are shorter after the PT?(by thundy)
4.-How much changed the game? (by thundy)

and many other but i was starting to think on these questions...

1. Well, I think to there are several answers, but in the first stage what does it mean Jero's style. Jeronimo is a player who always play for funa nad always try to make a very huge farm/leather based village. This type of base means mass spam after '75-80minutes but until the game is only about the survivng somehow until the big boom. There are pros and cons.
Pros: It's a kind of never die base, ofc if built up properly. So this base won't have food problem it's prepared for longterm games and spamming the units massivly. Sometimes there are lots of food to trading them.
Cons: Very slow build up. The base building finished around 70-80mins.(ofc depends of the maps and locs...). Low starting army with few quality troops. If the game is 60minutes it means need to survive the next 10-15minutes until the base be finished with this little army. So this kind of basebuilding's biggest risk is getting rush under the next 20minutes.
Why not effective to build it in the current release? Well maybe because an almost halfsize base can produce almost 1,5times more in 60minutes and with much more quality troops. (an example to explain it: smaller base: 20swords+10knights+30bows compare huge base 20swords+20bows--main reason is the big base needs 30++laboures,100++serfs so even it it would have enough weapon still would not be there enough recruit.)
The Jero sty base almost everytime start with this type of disadvatage. Need almost 30minutes to catch up the enemys army1s size.
Basicly the answer to the Why is described here, but of course the players won't play strategies which would predict lose in almost every case or in every game.

2.Stable. :? Who doesn't have? So here is a replay where every player had stable and knights.
Well I only noticed this when i watched the 3rd shoutcasts also. Almost everytime, every pplayers have stable in the games in the curent release. I remember the times and watched several replays as research from that time when only 2-3players from 8 had stable and trained horses. It is a courious thing. What changes were there? What happened? Or the players let be better? Hm I don't think the levels between the players just melted. If I think on the old release had power market to help producing horses still there were less horse rush players. Something is happened somewhere.
I have thoughts about it, my opinion is the farms are working much better. In the old release seems the food was a kind of challange also. Those days under 8farms the players used to have hunger games. MAking stables were risky. Nowadays 6 farms are enough to manage the strongest, the most complex, most effective village. The most maybe strong but yes there is the 'Tibi-Keiz' type of the base which means well planned very small and well counted base which most of the time use less than 80 serfs and minimalize the space and maximalize the efficient. Very hard to encounter this type of base. The Jero's type base would have huge problem vs this. And this base is almost ready until 45-50minutes. If the player decide to extend the village can do it and immediately there will be not only 6 farms but 9. Thats another 2 swine farms or a second stable. I think to this release gives less problems under the building phase. The knights making isn't a veryspeciel thing anymore. But this thing make a small torsion in the game. If making knights(the strongest troops) is easier that means every player will try to abuse as much as possible. Well this has the follow problem: the smallest(Tibi-Keiz type) villages can produce knights very efficiently and massivly. The counter pike+xbow games needs 4-5 more buildng(1smelter+1ironweaponry+minimum 2-3 coalmines and +5-6serf) More building more citizens more gold and more food means less timber less starting wooden weapons. If somebody would go for pike x bows then Im almost sure would have to use minimum Axefighter as mellee but this would need more wood. So the counter game would need larger base from the starts which means its not as effective strategy way as the TIbi+Keiz type.
Well okay, I still could agree with this, needs knights at PT but how many???

3.-Why the games are shorter after the PT?
Shortly the reason is the 2nd answer.
I heard many-many times this games was waste of time, this was a short game...etc. The current release has 60minutes PT and plus 20-25mins (which is already a long game :O -and the hals of the fighting time was scouting and camping-one fight and end).
Why I do think to the reason is the easy horse production from the stable? Well when I research some older longer games than I noticed games without knights or with only fews knights more tactical and there are way more face to face bows+xbows actions. In the anciant days was way harder to kill group of bows. Was harder to going to make knights. nowadays if a team lose everything in the frst fight then the game is just over. Many times the teams could not save group of bows either because mass knights are on the field. And only trained few lances because making pikes would need larger base as i described it before.
So my opinion is the reason of the short games is the mass knights on the fields.
(There is an Revo style way when makes only 2ironsmelters and 1ironweaponry and 1ironarmory workshop.But this predict maximum scouts as mountained units and 30pikes or 30 xbows , but it doesnt have sounds like 20swordsman +10knights)

4.-How much has the game changed?
Reading the previous points, lot. The game changed lot. The units are much balanced on the battle, but their strengh at the economical side is still has problems. In another topic Ben wrote the 60min Pt is dead. Well if that is dead that means the game is dead. But I think the reasons are in front of us. One winner strategy which almost the best solution. Less early strategy ways. The longterm bases and strategy ways are not counting as much anymore becuse the average game time fell down somewhere to 70minutes from the 90mins. I know the players, the community and the programmers pray for shorter games, but under the years somewhere this thing destroyed the clear visions. Make the farms better and efficient, make the woodcutters are better, the building phase is easier also, everything is way more efficient and the on 60minPT the strongest strategy is the easiest and the counter game so if it all need more time and resources to finish it. I dont want to talk from longer games because if something can be finished less than 60 minutes thats just be more abuseable on longer PTs.
My feeling i sthat now the whoel game is faster almost 7-10minutes. Most of the players have as much army at 50-53mins then were back in those day. So yes tha game let be faster, but lost some strategy ways. Yes lost og the early market gaming also. That old market was (?) or seemed IMBA, but had one big advantage which was made the not balanced locations to a bit mre balanced. Not really counted if a location had only few woods or less spce, the players had chance to build up the same on almost every locations. Nowadays lots of maps are out because IMBA locations.
IMba locations and maps. Well, I would not say the map qualities let be better in the time, mainly thinking on the new longPT scripted maps. Playable but disgusting. And there was time when worried and deleted maps fro the game:D I know don't have to play it, but common, Im courious when somebod make a new maps...aren't you? :lol:
So yes, there were lots of changes, and when somebody say its easier now enough to think on the iron rush. In that time rushing iron was something what only the really good players tried to do and that was still a risky think for them, but nowadays if a player doesnt have ready ironproduction line until 30minutes that predict also a hard game. What is not really changed the scouts are still hanging out, but with several changeswith some strategies they could be back into the battlefield.(pike+xbow+axefighter+scouts.it could work, but for this need fix small things)
After my research I noticed that while the first ironmines were normaly after 30-40minutes in the past until nowads the players have to rich it until 20-30minutes. The ironrush come be much stronger as were before. There is no risk anymore to not rush iron, because it is working nicely if build iron and leather simultaniously.

Would change things in the economy side of the game? Would be nice there longer fights? Would be nice to see more strategy ways under 60mins PT? Possibilities?
-Horse cost from 5corn to 6 corn (less horse on the field makes longer kind of games, yes with a bit more camp because archers face to face->militie dance?)
-Iron minimg time: increasing it with 30%
-slower sword production time increase it with minimum 30% will be necesarry a second ironweaponry to equalize the strategy ways.(It will do the dreamt mixed/rock paper scissors type of army)
-+1stone to the towers
-Market: more exact prices, and adjust some of them. Mainly the stone values. Maximalize the values to 20 because Transportation time.
Revised value over cost 10.

Of course these changes would not help a lot on Jero's kind of bases, that kind of buildorder always need skill to camping :wink: but as we always seen small changes always can do butterfly effect.
Anyway its maybe selfish but I got these thoughts afer watched those shoutcasts and replays. This release is 'boring' because one main strat but the old release was may imba. Should step back one or forward with small balancing changes. These are only some values but would change the basic games drastically. I really hope these changes will come out as a new Beta. If I know well these thing are only some values in the code.
Okay, I would not distrub more, but I got some thoughts and opinions after a little thinking and personaly i would say the economic side is IMBA if we say the units are balanced. I hope to others see the problems similarly.
Balance the economy to the units strenght and power, or backward.

I know opened this topic total unnecesarry :mrgreen:
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Jeronimo

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Knight

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Joined: 24 Feb 2011, 23:00

Post 11 Dec 2016, 14:50

Re: Thoughs after shoutcasts

I think that games are shorter because of the shield bonus.
Infantry and cavalry survive better against mass ranged units, and after killing opponent mass of infantry, with just a small group of survivors you annihilate the stack of +30 ranged units that were shooting at you.
You don't let them escape (better if you kept cavalry alive), and his military army count goes totally down to 10-15 soldiers, then it's easy to surround his base or just walking into towers to place your bigger group of ranged units inside opponent base and gg.

Everything in the game is fine to me. Having cavalry is not obligatory, but allows for the moment written above.
In the versions before the shield patch, infantry would melt to ranged fire in the clashes (melee stalemate). That's the main reason why games were longer.
KaM Skill Level: Jeronimo

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