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Campy Game

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Ben

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Post 10 Jul 2013, 17:38

Campy Game

Here is a good example of why Cursed ravine needs serious adjustments in the map.

Bence and I take on 6 opponents in Cursed Ravine! I'm playing as "Avril Lavigne" in this game :P
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Bence791

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Post 10 Jul 2013, 18:14

Re: Campy Game

Well, the 2 players in the bottom left corner didn't do like anything :D Ben took out the top right corner, so the top left one remained. It took much more than 1 hour to finish them, as you will see, if you watch the replay.
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Ben

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Post 10 Jul 2013, 18:16

Re: Campy Game

We should have attacked the top-left together right away. Would have saved two hours.
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Esthlos

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Post 10 Jul 2013, 22:26

Re: Campy Game

Ben wrote:We should have attacked the top-left together right away. Would have saved two hours.

This. :P
Also, you spent pretty much all the time sieging them... in that time you could have expanded on the whole map and blatantly steamroll them with superior numbers. Well, actually *maybe* you could have outnumbered them through expansion... (more on this lower in this same post).

But you had not enough food for the army you trained, thus you couldn't wait, while they had plenty of food... time was their ally.
Maybe they would even have won if they counter-attacked after one of your failed attacks...

Yet, it is true that KaM encourages turtling.

Do you know how did they solve this problem in, for example, StarCraft?

They lessened the resources near starting sites and made them more spread out through the map.
This way, while a turtling player has superior defences, when turtling he has to give up most of the resource control. This means that he will eventually be overrun by enemy troops, unless he manages to wear them down up to the point that every resource in the map is used up and the only army left is the one he defended himself with.

And in KaM? Let's see... first of all, what are the resources in KaM?
-Stone
-Trees
-Fish
-Iron
-Coal
-Gold
-Free space
-Fertile ground

You get them all near your starting position, and you get plenty of them. To the point you don't actually want nor need to build another storehouse, ever.

You have no actual reason to expand for the simple reason that everything you need is near you, and it is behind an easily defendable chocke point.
In addition, if I'm not wrong in Cursed Ravine there even are no resources bar the ones near each starting position!
No reason at all to contest map control!
Even if you expanded all over the map, the advantage you'd get would be actually very little (also because it'd be nullified by the fact that you'd need more serfs for both building and managing the extended delivery requests).

The Market both makes things better and worse; worse because a turtling player can use it to buy whatever he is running out of, and better because an expanding player has more wares to trade for the resources he needs.

These are just my two cents on this matter.

I'm attaching an example map to explain what I mean... in this very ugly and simple map, important resources are placed between players and in an exposed position.
You can turtle, but if you do then you are cutting yourself out of Iron, Coal and Gold supplies.
Of course playing this map would result in a tower rush to control those resources, but this map is not intended to be actually played anyway... its purpose is just to illustrate what I mean when I write "there is no point in expanding beyond your town's nearest defendable borders".
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Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Ben

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Post 11 Jul 2013, 03:25

Re: Campy Game

Esthlos wrote:
Also, you spent pretty much all the time sieging them... in that time you could have expanded on the whole map and blatantly steamroll them with superior numbers. Well, actually *maybe* you could have outnumbered them through expansion... (more on this lower in this same post).


That's not necessarily true. There is a point where expanding your base further does not give any significant bonus. Later, Bence and I started expanding some to sell wooden shields for coal and gold ore; though.

Your points on map control are good though. Cursed Ravine is campy for that reason (no map control is needed). Bence and I played 2v2v2v2 so map control was even more unnecessary.

However, understand that in KaM, map control is more important for troop maneuvers and cooperation than for resource collecting. If, say, there was a huge deposits of gold in the center of a map, it would often be better to just use the market than make a long road out to the resources.

Esthlos wrote:Maybe they would even have won if they counter-attacked after one of your failed attacks

I have no doubt that you are sorely mistaken. These camping noobs (forgive my vulgarity :P) could barely fight defensively, let alone siege a city. Besides, Bence and I had an amazing production, so it was easy for us to retain our army.
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Krom

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Post 11 Jul 2013, 05:22

Re: Campy Game

@Esthlos: Excellent analysis! :) I wonder how mapmakers could try to make resources spread through the map so that players HAD to expand to collect them, but in a KaM way.
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Ben

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Post 11 Jul 2013, 06:08

Re: Campy Game

Making a 200-square-long road into the middle of nowhere? It's just not practical in the current game style. Take this game Bence and I just played. We could have made a road to one of the destroyed bases to seize the resources there, but the time it would take is just unreasonable and not fun by any means. This example you showed is no exception.

Now, if this COULD be made to work, then of course it would be nice, but I don't see it fitting into KaM.
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Da Revolution

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Post 11 Jul 2013, 08:39

Re: Campy Game

Take a look at a map like warfare in the wilderness 8p. If you make a map with about the same idea but less resources near and maybe a bit more in the middle you'll have the situation esthlos sketches (i havent downloaded the example map).
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Esthlos

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Post 11 Jul 2013, 08:48

Re: Campy Game

Ben wrote:
Esthlos wrote:
Also, you spent pretty much all the time sieging them... in that time you could have expanded on the whole map and blatantly steamroll them with superior numbers. Well, actually *maybe* you could have outnumbered them through expansion... (more on this lower in this same post).


That's not necessarily true. There is a point where expanding your base further does not give any significant bonus. Later, Bence and I started expanding some to sell wooden shields for coal and gold ore; though.

    Esthlos wrote:In addition, if I'm not wrong in Cursed Ravine there even are no resources bar the ones near each starting position!
    No reason at all to contest map control!
    Even if you expanded all over the map, the advantage you'd get would be actually very little (also because it'd be nullified by the fact that you'd need more serfs for both building and managing the extended delivery requests).

:P

However, understand that in KaM, map control is more important for troop maneuvers and cooperation than for resource collecting. If, say, there was a huge deposits of gold in the center of a map, it would often be better to just use the market than make a long road out to the resources.
[...]
Making a 200-square-long road into the middle of nowhere? It's just not practical in the current game style.

That's true, you could use free space to get those resources far away instead of reaching them.

The problem in my opinion is precisely the "current game style"... it's both campy and perfectly fitting for campy maps.

Esthlos wrote:Maybe they would even have won if they counter-attacked after one of your failed attacks

I have no doubt that you are sorely mistaken. These camping noobs (forgive my vulgarity :P) could barely fight defensively, let alone siege a city. Besides, Bence and I had an amazing production, so it was easy for us to retain our army.

I'm not so sure about it... their production wasn't that bad either, you had just a few towers for defence and I'm pretty sure I saw at least one moment where their surviving army was pretty big... :P

Da Revolution wrote:Take a look at a map like warfare in the wilderness 8p. If you make a map with about the same idea but less resources near and maybe a bit more in the middle you'll have the situation esthlos sketches (i havent downloaded the example map).

*Goes to check it*
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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WollongongWolf

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Post 11 Jul 2013, 09:53

Re: Campy Game

To be honest, I'm not sure whether we should call the game campy or several/a lot maps campy. It's the map creator's who determine game play (just look at how much the can enable/disable: towers, narrow or wide passages, availability of resource, starting resources, compact building etc.). Problem is distinguishing the less campy maps from the campy ones (or just create anticamp maps), and encourage people to play them (I think the reason randoms like CR so much is because it's so "safe"). But yeah, encouraging them is hard, seeing how hard it already is to encourage playing 60pt 1x speed xD.
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Esthlos

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Post 11 Jul 2013, 13:47

Re: Campy Game

I've tried to create a map where an expanding player gets rewarded... in this map, you can turtle very well due to the high amount of choke points, but if you do then you're pretty much bound to only make a few Wood troops.

If you instead can manage to conquer the center of the map, then you get rewarded with a huge supply of Gold, Iron and Coal.

In order to prevent a "Tower rush" toward the center during peacetime, the only Stone deposits in the map are the ones near each player's starting position.
(I'm unsure whether these Stone deposits contain too many stones or not for this purpose)

Each player starts with some Coal Ore and has a little Gold deposit near his starting position; those starting on the corners of the map (thus farther from the center) have the initial Gold deposit nearer to their Storehouse.

What do you think about this map?
(Don't be too harsh, this is my first actual attempt at creating a playable map ever :$ )

Da Revolution wrote:Take a look at a map like warfare in the wilderness 8p. If you make a map with about the same idea but less resources near and maybe a bit more in the middle you'll have the situation esthlos sketches (i havent downloaded the example map).

This is what I tried to do.
Yet, in my opinion the end result would have been far better if only I weren't this bad at map making... :|
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Bence791

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Post 11 Jul 2013, 16:26

Re: Campy Game

Esthlos wrote:
Esthlos wrote:Maybe they would even have won if they counter-attacked after one of your failed attacks

I have no doubt that you are sorely mistaken. These camping noobs (forgive my vulgarity :P) could barely fight defensively, let alone siege a city. Besides, Bence and I had an amazing production, so it was easy for us to retain our army.

I'm not so sure about it... their production wasn't that bad either, you had just a few towers for defence and I'm pretty sure I saw at least one moment where their surviving army was pretty big... :P


Esthlos, the point(s) you are talking about were like: Ben left some archers on the battlefield so they came to kill them. They had many soldiers, idd, but that didn't count. I lost all my troops, 1 minute later I already had 15 axefighters, 6 knights, ~15 archers (or more? I don't remember) and many more militia. So did Ben. We trained more troops in 2 minutes than they did in 65 minutes (the pt). They would've had no chance if they attacked anyway. Both our gold and weapon production (=soldierspam) were just much better than the level they could have won against ;) (we could have kept it up for days, weeks, months since we both had enough food as well, and as Ben wrote, we traded wooden shields to gold ore and coal).

Ben wrote:so it was easy for us to retain our army

That was easy because they camped too much and in a very annoying way :D
The Kamper is always taking my colour!

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Esthlos

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Post 11 Jul 2013, 19:12

Re: Campy Game

Bence791 wrote:
Esthlos wrote:
I have no doubt that you are sorely mistaken. These camping noobs (forgive my vulgarity :P) could barely fight defensively, let alone siege a city. Besides, Bence and I had an amazing production, so it was easy for us to retain our army.

I'm not so sure about it... their production wasn't that bad either, you had just a few towers for defence and I'm pretty sure I saw at least one moment where their surviving army was pretty big... :P


Esthlos, the point(s) you are talking about were like: Ben left some archers on the battlefield so they came to kill them. They had many soldiers, idd, but that didn't count. I lost all my troops, 1 minute later I already had 15 axefighters, 6 knights, ~15 archers (or more? I don't remember) and many more militia. So did Ben. We trained more troops in 2 minutes than they did in 65 minutes (the pt). They would've had no chance if they attacked anyway. Both our gold and weapon production (=soldierspam) were just much better than the level they could have won against ;) (we could have kept it up for days, weeks, months since we both had enough food as well, and as Ben wrote, we traded wooden shields to gold ore and coal).

Actually, the rate at which they produced soldiers is pretty impressive too, despite the slow start... anyway, it doesn't matter: in the end you won, thus the total outcome of your actions was better than theirs.

(Didn't notice it the first time: Red player was still in the game after 2 hours, and still exploring! That lone archer sneaking past your moving armies, so cute :3 )

(By the way, I think I learned a thing or two about town building from this replay, thank you very much :P )
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Bence791

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Post 16 Jul 2013, 22:13

Re: Campy Game

Ow haven't seen that, no problem :) Anyway you could learn much more from games we play at x1 speed, it was x1,5 as I remember, which caused some inefficiently spent seconds/minutes.
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Ben

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Post 17 Jul 2013, 01:26

Re: Campy Game

On the other hand, you can help improve your builder micro if you play a lot on 1.5 speed. The problem is that most randoms are not even microing their builders. They just watch them build and do nothing during the process; which is why they like these 2x speed. Still, if you can discipline yourself to keep trying your best with builder micro on 1.5 speed, you will find that it is much easier to do on 1.0 speed. :)
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