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TSK 20 Won in 4.5 minutes (r6720)

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cmowla

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Post 12 Dec 2015, 01:44

Re: TSK 20 Won in 5 minutes in r6720/11m31s in r5503

I got it!!!!!! TSK 20 can be won in 5 minutes flat! I can't believe it myself, and I really have nothing further to say about it except that I reused the beginning of my 5:58 (the first minute) AND that the replay kept breaking literally every 3 seconds for the first two and a half minutes of game play.

The FULL-WORKING replay (attached to the first post) speaks for itself in all other areas...or should I say ignorance is bliss. :mrgreen:

The probability of this happening is probably much more unlikely than anything that I can even imagine personally.

@KaMRemakefan, video? :D
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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cmowla

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Post 13 Dec 2015, 15:54

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4 minutes 58 seconds in r6720/11m31s in r5

Since in the original game, you couldn't tell the difference between a time of 5:59 and a time of 5:00, I have "adjusted the weights" a little bit better to achieve a 4:58! (See the first post.)

In addition, only 7 losses.

DONE.
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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Ben

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Post 14 Dec 2015, 09:55

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4 minutes 58 seconds in r6720/11m31s in r5

This makes one wonder what the actual feasible fastest time really is.
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cmowla

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Post 14 Dec 2015, 12:47

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4 minutes 58 seconds in r6720/11m31s in r5

Ben wrote:This makes one wonder what the actual feasible fastest time really is.
Thanks for commenting.

I'm not quite sure at all anymore. Unlike my 5:58, which really only took about 8 hours of actual execution time, this game took me nearly 4 times that! (I guess part of it was due to the replay consistently breaking for the first half of the game: I wanted to show you guys *how* I beat it, and thus that wasn't acceptable.) All I can say with some confidence is that from this point, most likely every 10 seconds you take off of the clock will require an exponential more amount of time to achieve. So if you're considering under a solid week (provided that you have a job and other obligations), then around this time is probably what we can define as "feasible".

In addition, I know that the start I used (from my 5:58) was ideal only with regards to how many troops the yellow AI player has and their approaching formation. However, I recently tried a new start which had my troops come up north much more efficiently, but I just didn't have the patience to do such a beautiful start on my end + redo it over AND OVER until the yellow AI decided to have a good turn out as it did in this replay. Unfortunately, I didn't really need that big of a turn out to win with this particular plan because of how I "screwed" the black AI's swords and xbowmen by tucking them in between that watch tower and effectively throwing the yellow AI player all over them. So clearly, one way to take off even more time is to have a more efficient start, which is definitely possible to achieve. I'm estimating that this alone can make up to 30 seconds difference!

Certainly the knights (at least some) must have priority in going up north first, but there probably is a "balance" of knights and infantry which can squeeze through that gap in the mountains, and there probably is an ideal way to, say, make a few sacrifices to perhaps slow down the approaching right AI initial army to give the majority of your troops a chance to go north (and northeast) as efficiently as possible.

I had (have) 120 save restore points for this win (some are just fractions of a second apart), because the "butterfly effect" is probably more immediately real in this game than it is in real life. In fact, I find that this game is so realistic in "good" and "bad" luck, that one of the motivations I had in beating this mission this quickly is to learn more about "the butterfly effect".

All in all, clearly I cannot say that I cannot get a better time, because I consistently break my record sooner or later. All I do know now is that there are a few built-in limitations which we can easily construct a lowerbound time for. Things that cannot be avoided even when fighting at the "microscopic level" are obviously:
  • Stopping a unit from pausing when another unit dies in front of him (provided that that is the direction he is try to go in).
  • Decreasing the amount of time it takes units to destroy buildings.
  • Etc.

What can be "compromised" at the microscopic level are:
  • The conditions in which a troop can lure AI troops (we saw me do this with a knight without me even slowing down the clock at the beginning of my 7:57 win--I whacked at TWO groups of sword fighter groups without engaging in battle to effectively draw them--despite that they were scripted to approach my storehouse no matter what--to effectively break the script command and have them follow me to hell.)
  • How many troops die in battle (no exceptions).
  • How resistant troops can be from xbowmen arrows (no exceptions)
  • How efficiently troops can move.
  • Etc.

All in all, this has now become a computer science theoretical problem which probably can never be provably argued one way or another, just because of the fact that there are so many possible ways to achieve the same time, much less having a full understanding of the optimal path(s).

This question is much more complicated to answer than figuring what is the maximum required number of moves to solve a Rubik's cube! I know you said "feasible", but "feasible" is subjective and I find it will constantly change for those who are actively approaching the minimum time that "there is no line drawn" to define what is feasible.
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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Vatrix

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Post 14 Dec 2015, 17:02

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4 minutes 58 seconds in r6720/11m31s in r5

You made quite a science from this mission. Very impressive win time you have there.

If I remember my win time on this mission when I was just a small squire - it took me about 5 hours to complete this mission in original game - I feel really amazed about what new can be done even these days with a little (actualy a lot of) effort.

I'd say continue with this, but when I realize how much time it takes to do stuff like this, I'll just keep quiet and wait for some more impressive records!

Have a nice day!
Vatrix
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
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cmowla

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Post 14 Dec 2015, 17:47

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4 minutes 58 seconds in r6720/11m31s in r5

Thanks Vatrix for the compliment. I think I will actually try to get a better time. I will have some free time soon enough (I might even just try to get the start tonight if I can). Since my main plan has finally taken shape, I believe the hard work of planning is over. Thus my next record breaker should be easier to do, and hopefully the replay doesn't break (literally) every 3 seconds that it consumes so much time!
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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cmowla

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Post 18 Dec 2015, 01:12

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4 minutes 58 seconds in r6720/11m31s in r5

I have a new plan. With it, I am hoping to take off another minute! I am more than certain I can achieve 4m30s, and there might be some unseen factor that makes that the minimum feasible time I can achieve, but I am going to take a leap of blind faith and play as if I can get 3m59s with it and see how far I can get.

I will update this thread with any results I get, and of course a full-working replay in the first post!

It certainly will be amazing if this mission can be won in under 4 minutes!
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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cmowla

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Post 09 Jul 2016, 22:55

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4 minutes 28 seconds in r6720/11m31s in r5

I took 30 seconds off of the clock!

TSK 20 can be won in 4 minutes and 28 seconds. See the top of the first post for the full-working replay!

4 LOSSES: 2 swordfighter sacrifices, 1 serf, and 1 pikeman (killed by xbows).

Ben wrote:This makes one wonder what the actual feasible fastest time really is.
I'm still not quite sure, but I think it is a little more than 4 minutes. This wasn't a perfect execution, and thus it is possible to shave off a few more seconds from my plan for sure.

I had an entirely new start and plan. It was extremely HARD to come up with a plan that actually worked in a feasible amount of time. It would probably take a while for me to explain everything that went on (but I can, if someone wants), but I went through about 2000 temporary save files, and I have hundreds of final save restore points!

The replay broke literally every second for the first two minutes, but I managed to redo it so that the replay actually works. It should be very entertaining!

@KaMRemakefan, How about a Video?
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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cmowla

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Post 26 Feb 2017, 22:10

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4.5 minutes (r6720)

I just published a YouTube video of my 4 minute and 28 second win. I showed and explained how I did it, and I made it quite entertaining this time. :)



Enjoy!
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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equalizer

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Post 27 Feb 2017, 10:53

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4.5 minutes (r6720)

That is just truly genius. Although I do not want to know how many hours you spend on figuring this all out :O.
Your video is quite entertaining also, well done!
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cmowla

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Post 06 Mar 2017, 01:33

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4.5 minutes (r6720)

equalizer wrote:That is just truly genius. Although I do not want to know how many hours you spend on figuring this all out :O.
Your video is quite entertaining also, well done!
Thank you for your kind words.

I actually made this PDF to be a guideline to follow for whoever (me or KaMRemakefan) was going to make this video (especially the explanation portion). Most of what's in it is shown in the second half of the video, but if there are any details you or anyone interested in which the video did not clearly address, or if you possibly want to see a slightly different explanation for the events touched on in the video, this PDF may help.

There is one major detail that is not in either explanation, however. That is, why did I choose to bring mostly knights from the northern villages back to home base and not some other type of unit? Besides the fact that I was forced to have mostly pikes at home base, only the knights could get to home base fast enough for me to be able to kill them before 4.5 minutes. In my 4 minute and 58 second win, I still managed to get away with luring the east village's army to home base because there was extra time for them to get there. That is, even if I strike at the east village's xbowmen with a knight decoy ASAP (which I did in this attempt at approx. 1.5 minutes), the entire army will not reach home base by 4.5 minutes. (Ponder on that for a moment!) Therefore, what I took for granted in all of my previous wins was that I could kill the east village's units at home base, but now I no longer had the time to wait for them to come there. That's why I had to get the yellow AI to kill them. But by doing so, I had to find ways to kill the majority of the northern village's troops myself. Obviously I chose not to explain this in the video, because I would have to explain the history and reasoning behind my previous quick wins. I thought the video was long enough, so I left this explanation out.

I'm not so positive that this mission can be won that much faster in this release, but there is probably more than one way to beat it in 4.5 minutes. How much these potential alternate plans differ from mine I don't know, but maybe some day someone will come along and succeed in finding such a path in either this release or in a future one.

But I hope this is my last content post in this thread. If I want to stay sane, I dare not attempt to decrease my time any further!

I now wish to focus on building very efficient villages like I recently did for TSK 14.
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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thunder

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Post 06 Mar 2017, 15:59

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4.5 minutes (r6720)

Hello!
I remember a time when my father bought a PC with 50MHz processor and installed a game called Arkanoid. It was an arcade game but the resources of the PC was not enoguh to this software could run smmothly. Somehow I could slows down the software -Cheated the time- So I could reach levels over 10 but after it let be boring so rather went out to playing football with friends. :D Anyway I was happy if I could rich level 3 on normal speed :D Yeah, I was noob in that game also...
But slowing down the time is a kind of cheat. Ask multiplayers to play game with x0,5 speed.
When I played the original TSK missions, I also searched the sneaky ways to complete the missions as fast as possibe, but think back I would say the best missions are those where you dont have enough soilders to beat the enemy at the start. No tricks only start to build a village and no opened tower.
Honestly, what you did looks out amaizing and cool, but seems touched the gamespeed and used the tower trick.
Would it work withouth tower trick or without any tricks? Withouth tricks what is the best time?
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cmowla

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Post 06 Mar 2017, 21:36

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4.5 minutes (r6720)

thunder wrote:I also searched the sneaky ways to complete the missions as fast as possibe,
I don't think I was being "sneaky". I made it particularly clear in this thread that I started decreasing game speed after my 7 minute and 57 second win, which I did win at normal game speed. :wink:

(Now that I learned a few new tricks from winning it faster, I probably can (but I am not going to) lower that time while keeping the game running at normal game speed. In fact, everyone who watches my replays have this ability to do so because coming up with a strategy to win quickly is the hard part. All execution takes is practice and patience. However, I highly doubt most who attempt to replicate my 4 minute and 28 second win will be able to do so by decreasing the game time speed like I did. Not because they are less skilled than I per-say, but I highly doubt there are many out there who can do that without going crazy. To make matters worse, I essentially won that mission in 4.5 minutes DOZENS of times because I had to redo my play due to unrelenting replay breaks.)

The whole point of me beating it by slowing down game speed was to show (for entertainment) how it would look if "god" or a VERY smart AI was playing against the AI in TSK 20. It was a theoretical quest and a "different kind of puzzle" than what normal game speeds have to offer.

thunder wrote:Withouth tricks what is the best time?
Everyone has their own definition of "tricks", and thus I will not bother to try to guess what you mean by that. Not because I can't, I am unwilling, or that I purposely "won't" try to take on your challenge, it's because it's IMPOSSIBLE for me (or anyone else) to do.

Let me explain.

Remember, the AI is NOT a human player. Therefore even the idea of "multiplayer" is not at all relevant to how you beat the AI. The AI cannot learn from experience, it has no fear, it does not hesitate to make decisions, it doesn't care about how many casualties it has, it consistently follows orders/commands to the T, and it will consistently behave the way it does overall, no matter how prepared or unprepared its opponent is, what units (and how many) its opponents attack it with, at what times it is attacked, and how consistently its being attacked.

For example, if the AI has predominately knights, it's logical for a human player to make pikes. Now, does the AI see that you are making pikes and therefore decides to make swords and then choose to fight you with their swords and reserve their knights for another purpose?

Does the AI ever break up its groups into single leaders to avoid heavy casualties? Does the AI pull back its troops from battle if they are being fired upon? Does the AI try to avoid being ambushed or flanked? Etc. etc. etc.

Therefore, as soon as you acknowledge that the AI and how this game has been programmed for what they are, then surely the only reasonable restriction we should allow is to play at normal (or faster) game speed which I have done down to my 7m57s win. I was thinking about attempting to lower it more at normal game speed, but since a new KaM Remake version is coming out and since I'm honestly TIRED of playing this map, I changed my mind.
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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cmowla

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Post 09 Aug 2017, 14:46

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4.5 minutes (r6720)

Well, here we go again. I'm going to aim for 3 minutes and 59 seconds now.

...Just kidding!

But, for the heck of it, in regards to the video I made of the replay, if some of you only preferred to see the first half (the first full-take of the replay, with minimal explanation) and prefer it without the music, I've just uploaded the video for you! As an added bonus for the "delay", I have also added in sound effects for the commands to make it seem more like a recording of live game play rather than a replay. (Just experimenting.)

TSK 20 in 4.5 minutes (KaM Remake) - Shorter Video, No Music, Extra Sound Effects

Has anyone ever bothered to add in sound effects into KaM videos of replays?
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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MickeyMouseXD

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Post 24 Sep 2017, 20:27

Re: TSK 20 Won in 4.5 minutes (r6720)

Sir Cmowla, You are the best player i ever seen :D
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