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Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

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Esthlos

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Post 30 Aug 2016, 18:00

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

About interactive pause:

KaM is not that complicated to need such a feature. On the other hand it will be heavily abused to micro the troops.
Not adding a single-player feature because it could be exploited in a game that has cheats seems a little hypocritical to me, but whatever... you're the developer, your word is law here. :P
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Ben

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Post 30 Aug 2016, 23:41

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

I agree with Esthlos. Cant really say it's cheating when there are cheats in the game already :)

Also, I believe that every game should support interactive pause for single player, KaM included. It is very useful when doing streams to explain why you are doing things ;)
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Krom

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Post 31 Aug 2016, 04:57

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

"Not adding a single-player feature because it could be exploited"
- because it could change the game in unexpected ways.
Many games heavily rely on real-time to challenge the player (there's even genre distinction - real-time vs. turn-based strategies). If KaM were to become semi-real-time, it would change it a lot.
Remember, KaM Remake is a remake, we have to stick to the original and its spirit.
"Cant really say it's cheating when there are cheats in the game already"
- with this we could justify pretty much anything, but we will not, right?
Interactive pause could be a nice feature for streamers, but not applicable in MP. SPs on the other hand are not very much "action-packed" to need it?
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Esthlos

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Post 31 Aug 2016, 07:54

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

"Not adding a single-player feature because it could be exploited"
- because it could change the game in unexpected ways.
Many games heavily rely on real-time to challenge the player (there's even genre distinction - real-time vs. turn-based strategies). If KaM were to become semi-real-time, it would change it a lot.
Remember, KaM Remake is a remake, we have to stick to the original and its spirit.
It would be like the bucket-on-the-head trick in Skyrim, or like the cheats: it's there if you want to use it, else you can just go on as usual and won't even notice that it was added.

It wouldn't change the game, its challenge, nor its spirit, for anyone except for those who wanted that in the first place... I honestly can't see why you think it would be a problem.

I mean, if it was hard or long to implement, that'd be different; but if the only problem is that it would change the game for those that would like to use that change (and noone else), then I question the validity of this objection.
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Tiank

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Post 31 Aug 2016, 13:05

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

I totally agree with Krom, adding active pause would change game's spirit and could change the gameplay in unexpected ways. It's not like a choice between using or not using cheats, cheats in KaM (SP) are making game easier, they are not changing it as drastically as active pause would.

If someone is not able to manage his city and plan ahead on 1x speed (whether it's SP or MP), then even cheats or active pause wouldn't help. It takes a certain amount of skill and time to learn how to do that, which is good and I don't see why it should be changed.
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Esthlos

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Post 31 Aug 2016, 16:04

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

I totally agree with Krom, adding active pause would change game's spirit and could change the gameplay in unexpected ways. It's not like a choice between using or not using cheats, cheats in KaM (SP) are making game easier, they are not changing it as drastically as active pause would.

If someone is not able to manage his city and plan ahead on 1x speed (whether it's SP or MP), then even cheats or active pause wouldn't help. It takes a certain amount of skill and time to learn how to do that, which is good and I don't see why it should be changed.
Of course it wouldn't be useful at 1x when there's nothing going on, but it would allow you to coordinate troops in the battle while recruiting reinforcements while managing your town, all at the same time and without going crazy for the click spam.
I for example like KaM and similar games exactly for their slow pace, and find those occasions requiring high clicks per minute unnecessarily stressful; an interactive pause feature would solve this neatly.

This is KaM after all, not Starcraft: high clicks per minute shouldn't be required in single player.

Besides this though, why do you even care how others play their single-player games?
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Ben

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Post 31 Aug 2016, 16:24

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

"Cant really say it's cheating when there are cheats in the game already"
- with this we could justify pretty much anything, but we will not, right?
Interactive pause could be a nice feature for streamers, but not applicable in MP. SPs on the other hand are not very much "action-packed" to need it?[/quote]

Interactive pause in multiplayer is a bad idea for sure. However, I was just trying to make several points during a battle in a SP recording, but I couldn't make a clear point because I can't do anything during pause :(
Also, I don't buy into the argument of this being a "remake" of KaM in this instance. The game play and interface (Shift + click +100, click and drag roads, etc.)has been changed so much that this argument lost merit.
Besides this though, why do you even care how others play their single-player games?
This. Exactly. You don't wanna interact in pause? Don't do it. I and others could find this feature very useful.
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Tiank

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Post 31 Aug 2016, 16:44

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

it would allow you to coordinate troops in the battle while recruiting reinforcements while managing your town, all at the same time and without going crazy for the click spam.
There is no click spam in such situation, you got Barracks at one hotkey, schools on another ones and you just send reinforcements into the battlefield with few clicks. It's hard to build further in such a hectic situation, but that's what it's about :). You got Peace Time for that and in SP AI has certain attack times so it won't attack too early.
Besides this though, why do you even care how others play their single-player games?
I don't care how others play in SP, I care about not making game easier. It's good as it is now. You plan your city step by step and have time to think what to do next while buildings are being build. There's enough time for everything.
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sado1

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Post 31 Aug 2016, 18:08

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

The interactive pause is actually sort-of implemented already... Just change the pace setting in settings.ini to 1000, for example, then use one of the "speed" settings just like it was "normal" setting (for example set Medium speed to 10); when you want to pause, simply disable the speed. The main problem though, is that this way, the "normal" speed lags out quite a bit, at least on my PC - the "speed" feels exactly the same as x1, but it feels like playing x10 because of the frames being skipped a lot.
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Krom

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Post 31 Aug 2016, 18:20

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Interactive pause in multiplayer is a bad idea for sure. However, I was just trying to make several points during a battle in a SP recording, but I couldn't make a clear point because I can't do anything during pause :(
Could you explain a bit more, what were you trying to make and what could have been helpful? Clicking on units/groups, seeing houses info, giving troops orders?
Also, I don't buy into the argument of this being a "remake" of KaM in this instance. The game play and interface (Shift + click +100, click and drag roads, etc.)has been changed so much that this argument lost merit.
Should we add spaceships and gremlins right away now, cos it is changed SO much? ;-)
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Krom

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Post 31 Aug 2016, 18:22

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Besides this though, why do you even care how others play their single-player games?
Hmm.. should I point at how many features were added into Remake because we did care about it.. maybe not. Don't like being trolled :-P
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Lewin

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Post 03 Sep 2016, 13:32

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

I agree about interactive pause being a bad idea. It might make the game more like total war (semi realtime strategy), where pausing regularly is an essential part of battles. The game will get "easier" with this feature (players can micromanage more), which means missions will be made to be harder, and everyone will have to use this feature to be considered a skilful player. Then it's becomes less optional, instead an element of the game shaping the overall style and feel.

Saying players can choose to use or ignore the feature therefore it should be implemented doesn't make sense. As Krom said we could add spaceships and players could choose to not use them if they don't like them, but does that mean we should? Does that mean the spaceships will have no impact on the feel or style of the game?
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Esthlos

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Post 03 Sep 2016, 15:05

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

I agree about interactive pause being a bad idea. It might make the game more like total war (semi realtime strategy), where pausing regularly is an essential part of battles. The game will get "easier" with this feature (players can micromanage more), which means missions will be made to be harder, and everyone will have to use this feature to be considered a skilful player. Then it's becomes less optional, instead an element of the game shaping the overall style and feel.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
  • Frequently, the slippery slope has no evidence presented for why one would actually go down the slope, even if it is hypothetically possible. Pointing this out is sufficient to logically counter the argument. However, slippery slope arguments that involve no evidence can usually also slip the other way: if it is argued that gay marriage will lead to man-on dog sex, one could just as well argue that restricting gay marriage will lead to restrictions on other marriage, until it's banned altogether. After all, you may find it repugnant that two men marry, but if enough people find May-December romances repugnant, could we not also ban people from marrying anyone more than 4 years younger? If evidence is presented for why the slip could occur, the argument may be valid, in which case countering it requires refuting the evidence.
Saying players can choose to use or ignore the feature therefore it should be implemented doesn't make sense. As Krom said we could add spaceships and players could choose to not use them if they don't like them, but does that mean we should? Does that mean the spaceships will have no impact on the feel or style of the game?
Nonsense: a new unit would obviously deeply impact both multiplayer and singleplayer... that's a completely different matter, ballpark, league, and even sport. (cit)
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Ben

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Post 03 Sep 2016, 17:49

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Should we add spaceships and gremlins right away now, cos it is changed SO much? ;-)
Does that mean the spaceships will have no impact on the feel or style of the game?
I don't like this analogy. It's too far-fetched. Also, it makes me feel patronized to compare something outlandish like a spaceship to a game mechanic. My brain is not so small that I can't understand more detailed analogies.

Anyway, that said, I can support being against this feature nonetheless. Your (Lewin's) comparison to a total war game is quite understandable. Interactive pauses are indeed missed in RTS games, and more within the realm of grand strategy, simulators, and (to an extent) city builders. RTS games should be fast paced. Adding interactive pause to the Remake would be a step in the wrong direction.

TL;DR: Krom, Lewin, you have me convinced :)
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Esthlos

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Post 03 Sep 2016, 20:37

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

TL;DR: Krom, Lewin, you have me convinced :)
That didn't take long :P

Just to be clear: I technically gave up in the first post of page 170 (it's not like I can't make my own modded version of the game for single-player use, after all, so no point insisting)... it just bothers me that the reasons given for denying this request seem rather weak.
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"

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