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Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

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Ben

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Post 01 Dec 2016, 05:39

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

I don't have time or desire to make some replays for you :) If you can't take my word on it, it's no skin off my back. It reminds me of a time, I played against some guys on CR and they thought I hacked because I had more soldiers than they had serfs after 70 minute pt :D
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thunder

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Post 01 Dec 2016, 18:30

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.


Already almost every kind of trades are useless on NORMAL maps with regular kind of storehouse settings. Not with bonus megarandom scripts....IMBAAA

Before main part, i think we just need to put ideas with a lot of text into separated topic.


Already several opened topic are there with the market and the costs of wares and of the taxes.

To start with, i love short games, but i can't play it because of market.

Well, short games have milite IMO, but yeah, once every second year I play it also for fun as FFA.


To be honest, market just killed this type of game.

Then possible you did not see the first market version. That was 'the classical style' killer. The latest market is quiet friendly.

Reason is not complicated: we can build market, exchange food for trunks/timbers/axes/leather armors and win the game before all your town and army dies of hunger. It makes games with pt shorter than 35 unplayable.

Disagree. I've seen players who had towerS. Not only one. Maybe 4-5 which could kill your entire 8units PT army.


The only way to play without pt now is to block market in map editor.

Which version is this? If I know well we can play any PT settings from lobby.

But we shouldn't think that 0 pt gamed can't be long.

Agree, It is sometimes takes too much time. Once I had to catch a vagabond with meele. 40minutes was not enough...Okay it was a tactical map. Doesnt matter.

Sometimes we need market on late stages, but we can't build it.

Interesting. Sometimes? Why sometimes? Oh, maybe the popular maps have too much resources. This is why I like the Across the Desert kind of maps, where only 200-250gold ore avaible/player and limited resources. Limeted resources which is enough for 80-90minutes...and after have to use the market...well nobody like to building under the fights after the PT....but this is rather a technical challange. fighting and building together.

There can be a dynamic script, but we are to put it to every map we want now. It causes copying similar maps with different modes.

There are already too much useless dynamic scripts...
we are to put it to every map we want now

Disagree...There are many good maps without scripts wth the original rules.
It causes copying similar maps with different modes.

Disagree, I have more than 5GB maps stored. Make an auto button into the lobby. Select PT,Speed, Townhall,Market and the players can decide what to play. But new versions of the maps....nobody could follow it.


My position is that game with any pt settings must be playable.

No chance...Imba resources. The value of the resources are not equal the units strenght. Described already in other topics.


As i said, now only 35 and more are playable.

0PT also. If you are using market strategy then you won't have longterm working base. Risky if your first attack is lost;)


We can play 35, 50, 60, even 120 if we have a big map with lots of space both for building and battle.
The otimal PT is 55-60minutes. Almost every map is working with this. The players who know the game can produce 40-60soilders under this time. It is not too much but not too less either. Under 120minutes without script with some strategies can make 200units at PT. for 8 players this means around 1600units on a small map...Overcrowded and there won't be space for tactical movements which would gave the taste of the KaM Remake.

Time to allow 0-30 =) (ofc it depends on the map. On Blitzcrieg 20 is enough. But type of game is militia+iron. Like on standart map with 35)

Tell me quality maps please. :mrgreen:


Or course, we can allow it with a lot of methods. Fighting citizens, building walls and a lot of other absurd ideas. But fixing marketrush with direct fixing of market is much better all in all.

So, ideas:
1). Allow to build market after metallurgist's. It will allow to play pt 0-15, because in this case if player decide to play with marketrush, we'll be defeated by standart strategy with militia :D Beginners can suffer a little bit, when they have out of gold without metallurgust or miner, and it will delay their building much more. For this we can do some new messages (optional) like "Sir, our gold stocks are emptying", so player won't forget. But the main problem - this method doesn't work on pt 20-30. It just delay the timing, but doesn't cope with problem. But it allows 0-15 pt at least.

Allow it after the sawmill+quary are ready. It's okay.

2). Make trade food-something unprofitable. E.g. now fish-->leather armor is 5:1. If we make it 10:1, the power of market rush weakens twice. Someone can ask: but i can still exchange even with this rates. You can. But it became easier to defend. When your opponents spend recourses for market, you can build 3 towers instead. If opponent exchange food for trunks (as the most profitable exchange, but needed processing), he also have to build more sawmils and workshops. So, we have even more recources which we can spend on something useful. Disadvantage: can damage games in very late stages, when you have a lot of excess food.

The food trade the only thing what makes the market profitable nowadays. The market values are set well for longterm games. I would recommend to play maps where the storehouse setting is normal. I mean the food is not more than 150-160 and there are not too much fish and sousages. ;)
3). Combinations of 2 previous methods. E.g. do it together, or take a part from both of them, something like opening after gold mine and increase rates in 1.5, and so on.
4). Place for your ideas guys =)

Adjust the ironore producing time to the value of the ironunits and solved every balance questions.


Looking forward to your feedback =)

There are lots of game modes. Anno the market was set well for the longterm games because it made the early games way more interesting. Coals to tree trunks or ironbars to horses etc.... If you want to play short PT games, then search a short PT map. I use to play only 60minutes PT games. I not join to lobby where the setting are way over 70 with high speed. Not because i don't want to play rather because with many players know how a good game is looking out.
I completle disagree with huge market disabling scripting or changes. You can use uniqe dynamic scripts and can share it with other players. ;) We had to script the original buildorder because there were possibility. There are bonus scripts. The players can decide and create there own map which would be played by bonus scripts or caravan(which is somekind of market script.) etc...

Looking forward to your feedback =)

Delete the dynamic scripts and the speed settings please :mrgreen: :lol:

All of my respect!
Cheers!
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Post 02 Dec 2016, 07:28

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

How about less TS elitism in your posts guys? I don't understand the point of Thunder's post. To be honest I stopped reading it after seeing enough of the "you're a random" attitude. It's a damn disgrace, and vovets isn't even a random, I'm pretty sure that he plays this game for longer time than you.

Esthlos had a nice idea which doesn't seem to introduce any potential problems, I agree with it unless somebody thinks of a reason it shouldn't be implemented.
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vovets1

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Post 02 Dec 2016, 11:31

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

As i understood, main info from Thunder's post is that there's no possibility to play every pt in this game. If so, there's no need to the other part, bcs the purpose of this topic is how allow 0-30 pt games.

I like Esthlos' idea too. Moreover, Krom likes it!

I'll post here a replay with comparing of market and non-market games. As for towers: it can work when you play 1v1 or 2v2, but not more. The main problem is that militia can move (surprice!), and towers can't. So if you play 4v4, towers won't save you, bcs they can't cope with militia from 4 enemies when your allies build towers as you.
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thunder

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Post 02 Dec 2016, 13:37

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

Sorry, i wouldn't like to be rude .... No elitism smelling there... :?

0-30minutes PT games--> There were lots of tries to make the game faster... this is one of the reason why the old build order is used via dynamic scripts. Still some of the wares are produceable faster or on way more effective way.(farm's field and better woodcutter plants etc...). As you also said the 0 or shrt PT games not sure be shorter.

Anyway, true. Every game mode, i mean on different PT would need different maps and map settings or maybe dynamic scripting. (?)
Of course there are maps which are playable with many PT settings(ofc not with all....)
Like the survival style gamemode, but a completly new map(storehouse settings+several terrian changes) was set for that game mode also because the survalists style can not really fit for a 'bonus' kind of storehouse where the starting resources are in the storehouse are enough for a 45mins base...

I really think this market is quite well set now. True, maybe some adjustments would be nice, but I really would not increase the tax and the trades costs of it. That would make the market completly useless. (An ideal world :P The market should count with the delivery time also. Or using flexible values which is calculated specielly to the locations or to the maps.) There are some values when 1ware is equal with ~1,4-1,5 (1:1,4), but you can trade it to only 1:1. These kind of wares would have better sound 2:3(take 2 wares into the market and get 3from the selected one). These would be really nice adjustments.

I see your points why would you like to make the food trades a bit more expensive or disabling the market until xy time, but you need to see that in the short PT games if somebody invest into normal base and survive the early game vs market abuser or rusher than will win becasue the market user will die in hunger. Possible this is there in every game mode. For example 60minute PT games use to have this problem on some maps where the strating food is lower or problematic. If somebody rush the ironproduction and make farms lately then possible he will have 90troops at PT, but if he can't finish the rush then will die shortly.

What I liked in the first version of the Market was the number of varieties of the strategies under the PT. That market made many good new strategies. Okay those ways were very imba but then couldn't see two similar strategies. Anyway IMBA meant killed the 'classical' buildorder and strategy. 'THE CLASSICAL' was killed by the market??? How many times I heard it...omg...And the dynamic scrtipts just shut it down again. This is what I would wait from a well balanced( (?) ) Towhhall. New strategy ways under the PT.
(and I thought on mostly the under 65min PT game modes)

PS:
and again. should fix the ironmining speed :) and the game will go into balance perfectly;) :mrgreen: :wink:
trolololo
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vovets1

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Post 02 Dec 2016, 16:47

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

thunder wrote:if somebody invest into normal base and survive the early game vs market abuser or rusher than will win becasue the market user will die in hunger.


The problem is that normal base player can't survive.
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Ben

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Post 02 Dec 2016, 17:20

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

Esthlos wrote:
vovets1 wrote:Esthlos, we thought about that, but in this case we only fix trade food for leather armors. No problems to buy trunks, timbers and axes.

Why? You couldn't sell food, so what's the problem if you are allowed to buy axes?
Wasn't the problem about early food -> items trade? (?)

Ben wrote:Actually, the best way to stop trade abuse is to actually play well in most cases. Try doing a market rush against Romek or another player who can develop iron in 25-30 minutes. You will get some damage in, sure. But will not be able to win when your base is at 0% efficiency after your attack.

Isn't this the definition of overpowered, an unintended cheap use of something that allows unexperienced players to get the upper hand on much better players?
Sure, if you only take into account extreme cases like bad players vs the best players it won't matter much, but that is too extreme to be a valid counterargument.


Just read this. I'm sorry, I worded myself poorly. The way to counter food+militia rush is to play better yourself. That is, you need to learn how to counter it better. If the solution to addressing a certain strategy would be to just be better player than your enemy, than yeah that would be a broken/overpowered strategy :D

However, I really can't say for sure if you can stop militia rush in all cases. Like I said before, I don't have lots of experience in team/competitive games on low pt. In those games where we were playing more competitively, the militia spam couldn't compete with iron. Needs more testing, less talking.
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thunder

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Post 02 Dec 2016, 18:43

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

Well. Here is a little graph which can help a bit to see the problems and the solution of the problems also. :wink:
There are some categories which categorized by the starting food in the storehouse. Hard, Normal, Easy. The PT is not really count if we think on the regular building ways. But I think the 0-30minutes games with market strats are hard in the first 2-3 categories.

Hard qame modes:
-Survalists/minimal style (speciel modified maps)-There are versions of the maps with minimal starting resources. I dont think the players has huge chance to trade.
-Low food with normal building resources. (REbound/EastEnd/Hand in Hand Style)- The starting food is slightly under 100food. These kind of locations predict the food rush for a city which still in alive after 60mins. For trading that ~100foods. Yeah it could be problematic, but i would not say its a huge problem. For example trading 40 fish to 8 LJ and making 8 bows. Already no foods and a wrong movement on the battle field nd that 8bows will be melting down, and don not forget the city doesn't have food production.

Normal:
-Most of the well known maps as like Golden Cliffs CR, BitD etc... The starting food is normal around ~120-170. On these maps one type of food trading could be strong, yes. But as we know possible to make new versions of the maps. Nobody will cry. This is a friendly community. :wink:

Easy:
-GoT style with scripts: Need to use any market strategy? I not really know 0PT games on this kind of starts.

So I think to easiest solution is to fix the storehouse settings if we agree this market is way better than the first was and almost well balanced for the lategames.
Anyway the food diversity still can make the game harder. 60wine barrel or 20wine+20bread+20sousages? I still proud for a closable inns wares by wares. :lol:

Mainkindofstarts.jpg
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vovets1

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Post 02 Dec 2016, 19:03

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

It was discussed, that setting low amount of food won't save.
On standart maps we can do army, place first farm on 25-30 min and survive without any problems. If we have less amount of food, then we should build farms earlier. But our opponent can produce weapons instead and kill us. He will die, ofc, but we'll die earlier. As well as now with marketrush, just another lvl.

I find this thought of Ben really funny. To stop rush we should play better. But all my reasoning means that we have equal players/teams in game. And that equal level is not weak. It's rather offensively to hear that i can't play and try to do changes in remake for myself (after 5 years playing MP in remake, lul).
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thunder

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Post 02 Dec 2016, 21:54

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

I din't think 0-30minute PT is a serious game mode. Only for fun. I would not care if not playable because the market is op. Was there/anywhere tournament with 0-30mintues PT? I've never heard about. Okay its not playable, but im sure can fix it with storehouse settings. :?
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Rey

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Post 02 Dec 2016, 23:35

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

I really think this market is quite well set now. True, maybe some adjustments would be nice, but I really would not increase the tax and the trades costs of it. That would make the market completly useless. (An ideal world :P The market should count with the delivery time also. Or using flexible values which is calculated specielly to the locations or to the maps.) There are some values when 1ware is equal with ~1,4-1,5 (1:1,4), but you can trade it to only 1:1. These kind of wares would have better sound 2:3(take 2 wares into the market and get 3from the selected one). These would be really nice adjustments.


I like this Idea. Sounds reasonable. In case u want to trade just 1 resource (not 2 for 3) u will get just 1 for 1. Then we need to visually separate this 2 cases - when I want the best trade ratios, or when I want to trade just what I have. F.e. take 2:3 ratio for bread to wine trade (just example): when I have only 1 bread in market, do I need to wait for 2nd to get 3 wine, or may be I want to get 1 wine right now? May be some btn between "-" and "+" for manual trade.
Also there is a question how far can we go with this "2:3" ratios? 3:4? 5:7? 11:37? There should be some limit.

I din't think 0-30minute PT is a serious game mode. Only for fun.

I think this game is desired to give some fun to players, when they can show their skills in it. So from that point of view - yes its a fun mode, as well all others. I do not want to separate tournament modes (how many of them we have currently per year ?) from all other games.

Lowering food in storehouses will not diminish the possibility to make 10 militia - more then enought to destroy you.

The market is fine now for late game, as thunder said, but what is the problem with Esthlos's idea of closing good for trading unless you build house, producing it ? I do not see any cons, only pros for ppl who would like to play 0-30 pt games. I did not play 0 pt games often, to be honest, but its ok if somebody will like it, and do not see why thunder do not like this idea :wink:

Also we thought its a good idea to change market page in MapEd, where you currently can block some goods from trade: we want to set 3 modes there:
default - goods opened for trade after house, producing it was build (or if that house was at the start of the mission)
open - same as not blocked now, you can trade them from the start of the game.
blocked - same as blocked now, you can not trade with these goods.
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Ben

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Post 03 Dec 2016, 18:57

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

vovets1 wrote:It was discussed, that setting low amount of food won't save.
On standart maps we can do army, place first farm on 25-30 min and survive without any problems. If we have less amount of food, then we should build farms earlier. But our opponent can produce weapons instead and kill us. He will die, ofc, but we'll die earlier. As well as now with marketrush, just another lvl.

I find this thought of Ben really funny. To stop rush we should play better. But all my reasoning means that we have equal players/teams in game. And that equal level is not weak. It's rather offensively to hear that i can't play and try to do changes in remake for myself (after 5 years playing MP in remake, lul).

As I said before, you guys misunderstood me. What I mean by "play better" is to adapt to a stronger iron strategy. Two players of equal skill. One goes trade for militia the other goes for iron base. The iron player will win in almost every scenario (again, equal skills, locations, etc.) This is confirmed from my observations. Obviously, you have a different observation, but I believe it is due to inefficient iron/defensive bases. That is what I meant by "better." That is, your defensive/iron bases aren't quite optimal yet.
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Rey

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Post 03 Dec 2016, 20:09

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

Two players of equal skill. One goes trade for militia the other goes for iron base. The iron player will win in almost every scenario (again, equal skills, locations, etc.)

In case of pro players skill it is, probably, true (I never test it), but in case of average skill - its not: its much easier to go for market strat (market, sawmills, weapon workshops, gold line, barracks), then to build iron line - you need to get to iron (also depends on map is it far on not) and iron line.
Also on low numbers of warriors mass militia kills few iron warriors, because of side attack coef and because you can move them around, or just invade from different sides of the city.

Why do you like these rush market strats, are they ok with 'KaM spirit' ? Trading what was not supposed to be trade is abuse or trick. Initial food is not supposed to be used in that way. Its should be used just to feed your city, not to get (somehow) weapons for it.

Even if you like - in MapEd there will be an option to open the goods for trade. So fans of rush strats still could use it...
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Post 04 Dec 2016, 10:49

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

Why do you like these rush market strats, are they ok with 'KaM spirit' ? Trading what was not supposed to be trade is abuse or trick. Initial food is not supposed to be used in that way. Its should be used just to feed your city, not to get (somehow) weapons for it.



Why do you like these rush market strats

-I know this was not a question to me, but I like the early market thoughts. Liked that the old market gave more building strategy ways under a normal PT. There was not only one classical way to builds, there were many effective good ways. Okay all was a bit IMBA becauese countered the original/classical way, hecked the wood production and won almost 10minutes to create a good base with nice PT production. I would not say that was cheat, but of course there were really imba trades also. 3market strategies in the PT?? Had to changes and the changes destroyed these early market strategies. So yes the market went into lategame where it gives chance to produce things what you already could not do. (I mean on the empty mines...)
-Okay think on the 0Pt games the market rush also need a little brain. Do not think that is so easy. Theoreticaly who will win if everybody use that? What if the first fights result are draw? Then there should happen a boring hunger game and then the player will win who has more food left. Unfortunately in short PT games the food is not the priority question, simply not the main part of the game as like the building possibility is not part of the big percentage of the tactical maps/games.

are they ok with 'KaM spirit'

Well, the KaM spirit just died when the market step into the game, when the original build oreder changed, when the fun mode dynamic scripts started to be written when the players have auto training the recruits, when have infinity food etc.... These are good things of course, but hard to talk on the original KaM spirit. If somebody needs spirit of the KaM then will play SP games or open TSK,TPR or r3392. :?

Trading what was not supposed to be trade is abuse or trick.

The market gives almost infinity possibilities. There are speciel maps where trades are blocked. For example the storehouse has 3000stone at the start because the map doesn't have stone hills and the mapmaker decided to block the stone trades or block weapon trades etc...I think it is a controllable thing. Scriptable/setable for speciely to 0 PT games.

Initial food is not supposed to be used in that way. Its should be used just to feed your city, not to get (somehow) weapons for it

The starting resources gives possibilities to use them for what the player want to use them. :wink: If the player really wants then will trade all woodtrunks to vine or gold ore. Well there are good market trades where can trade your all pigs+skins to iron ore etc. but those are not IMBA and theoretical trading foods to weapons.

just a short note. Would you play 120minPT tactical game because it is possible to set?
To me the KaM Spirit says that folllow the next rule(shuld write it into the welcomescrren of the lobbies :mrgreen: ):
Play only:
-Tactical games with 0-5min PT.
-Building games with 30-70min PT.
(0-30min PT-mainly milite rush and the describe problems from the topic;
30-50min PT -not perfectly finished base builds with very low amount of troops;
55-70 minPT- significant almost perfectly finished bases with longterm thoughts and with good/large amount of troops which is still handled well by almost every maps;
75-120 min- PT huge bases, frequently empty mines, mass armies lots of the maps can not handle it/crowded and wooden PCs with lags)
Still in the SP game mode you get time to build a minimal base which is enough to survive the first attacks. KaM is a kind of game whats needs a minimum PT. Of course can play it with 0PT but do not wonder if the game will be smelling like fart of opossum.

Anyway sometimes I have feelings about the optimal PT is somewhere around 50-55mins, but its depends lot from the maps and the locations. There are locations where the palyers base is almost perfectly ready at 45 mins and the rest of the game enough if the player's reading the facebook, but there are locs where need minimum 65min to the same results.
The same at 0PT games also. There are locations where the players could make iron mine at 10mins, earlier than gold mines, for example BitD loc6. There I would trade maybe food to gold ore if i would play 0PT game and would rush iron and then doesnt matter the traded 10 leather.

This low PT market question problem(if it is really problem) is solvable with dinamyc scripts or with speciel maps settings. As i wrote it before the market is almost out of the game and the only big thing is why still in the game thats these lategame food trades and the players who forgot to train metallurgist in the early game.

Other: Higher prices would make the market completly useless. Still almost useless because most of the maps have enough high amount of starting resources on the map. The market tax seems also huge mainly if i think on the stone to horse trade which is around 32. Okay 32 stone but it means 32 times the delivery time from the quarries. Would need a market next to the quarries-it could need right build management. 32serfs would need it from the average 80. ALmost 25-30%of the transportaion would be about the stone. okay the stone is there from the gamestarts and seems cheap but not seems a profitable trades becuse removes lots of serfs from the basic production line. Stone used for buildings+roads and defending the village. MAybe if the horse cost be around 20 then I would think on trade horse from stone.
Anyway tax for who? Not the players are the leaders and kings? :mrgreen:

Only an idea If the tax is here, maybe different taxes for differnt wares or the tax woud be lower and lower as time time is going ahead? For example tax is
multiple the trade price with
x1,5 at 0min
x1,07 at 20min
x0,64 at 40min
x0,2142 at 60min
0 at 70min
After 70minustes there would not be tax. of course need more precise values to make this kind of market (dynamic values in the market.) This could be a solution to balancing market to different PTs.
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Ben

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Post 04 Dec 2016, 19:16

Re: Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.

Rey wrote:
Two players of equal skill. One goes trade for militia the other goes for iron base. The iron player will win in almost every scenario (again, equal skills, locations, etc.)

In case of pro players skill it is, probably, true (I never test it), but in case of average skill - its not: its much easier to go for market strat (market, sawmills, weapon workshops, gold line, barracks), then to build iron line - you need to get to iron (also depends on map is it far on not) and iron line.
Also on low numbers of warriors mass militia kills few iron warriors, because of side attack coef and because you can move them around, or just invade from different sides of the city.

Why do you like these rush market strats, are they ok with 'KaM spirit' ? Trading what was not supposed to be trade is abuse or trick. Initial food is not supposed to be used in that way. Its should be used just to feed your city, not to get (somehow) weapons for it.

In case of beginner/low skill players, I can understand that market rush being an easy way out could be a problem, indeed. That is an issue (though not particularly huge in my opinion).

Why do I like this strategy? Well, I never said that I like it :) However, I like 30pt games because of diversity in build orders I see when I play them. For me, the 60 minute game is dead. Same idea, same plan, implemented nearly the same every game. It's boring.
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