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Request for a new version of Remake

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vovets1

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Post 04 Nov 2016, 14:05

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

As for TH, we want to add it as a house which you can build on every map is in isn't blocked by author. Ofc it'll be allowed by adding in MapEd and scripts as well.
Why do you want to add reputation or some other barriers to equipping barbs? Single barbs are weak, bcs they are nothing against towers. Barbs+something means that amount of barbs isn't too high =) If Krom will allow adding TH, i think that in the beginning we should test my variant which is the closest to TPR's one, with little changes i've written some posts ago.
I think that now iron ws leather is balanced except scout. If you wanna leather priority, you can set pt a bit higher, or create a map which you can play with leather better on.

As for siege weapons, i want to see them in remake as well, but i think that there will be too much changes in one releace. It can lead more balance troubles, bcs it's difficult enough to predict all possible strategies which shouldn't be imba. Moreover, Krom don't like siege weapons, it will be hard to persuade him even allow adding them from script or MapEd. Now try not to focus on them =)
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Esthlos

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Post 04 Nov 2016, 15:11

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

vovets1 wrote:As for TH, we want to add it as a house which you can build on every map is in isn't blocked by author. Ofc it'll be allowed by adding in MapEd and scripts as well.
Why do you want to add reputation or some other barriers to equipping barbs? Single barbs are weak, bcs they are nothing against towers. Barbs+something means that amount of barbs isn't too high =) If Krom will allow adding TH, i think that in the beginning we should test my variant which is the closest to TPR's one, with little changes i've written some posts ago.

Because iirc the problem with them, one of the reasons for not having them in the Remake, was that 5 gold chests is not much compared to how strong they are, and also that in most cases you can make a few right from the beginning of the game.
The real reason though for suggesting it is that I think it would be very cool :P

I think that now iron vs leather is balanced except scout. If you wanna leather priority, you can set pt a bit higher, or create a map which you can play with leather better on.

I don't know if they are, I don't play multiplayer and it is difficult (and with a lot of possible variations and confounding factors) to compute it from a theoretical viewpoint; but judging from this thread it seems not everyone thinks they are.
In addition to this, I remember that some time ago someone brought up the problem that making bread is (was?) viewed as almost pointless when one could get sausages+leather instead.
I just think that lowering the starting value of the hunger bar at unit training + lowering peacetime might be enough to solve both issues, as already written.
Last edited by Esthlos on 04 Nov 2016, 15:15, edited 1 time in total.
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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vovets1

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Post 04 Nov 2016, 15:14

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

I use bread in every 60pt game. Moreover in 35 pt games. Strange.

5 militia=2barbs=10 gold. Who will win? 5 militias =)
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Esthlos

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Post 04 Nov 2016, 15:25

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

vovets1 wrote:I use bread in every game. Strange.

Well, for that matter I prefer to use Crossbowmen with mass Axe Fighters, but that doesn't make it better than Bowmen+Sword Fighters, and when this was brought up iirc I was one of those defending bread (it IS more efficient than sausages, after all).
Would you like for me to look for and dig up the discussion where the bread problem was first brought up?

5 militia=2barbs=10 gold. Who will win? 5 militias =)

Again, I'm simply remembering a statement I didn't make, so you can't really expect me to defend it... anyway, if you want to test it you should use higher numbers, so that randomness and direction modifiers play a smaller role.
For example, you could try 50 militia vs 20 barbarians. (Or I could try it for you if you prefer; I did write a test map exactly to test this kind of things over a huge number of battles after all... should still have it around here).

Another possible comparison is with Barracks units, the Scout being probably the most straightforward.
Barbarian vs Scout:
4 hp vs 4 hp
2 defence vs 2 defence
Scout moves faster
Barbarian has double the attack
Barbarian is 5 gold, Scout is 1 horse, 1 leather armor, 1 axe, 1 shield, 1 gold; that's 5 wares. Do these 5 wares compare to 5 gold chests, and justify the difference in stats and much earlier access?
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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vovets1

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Post 04 Nov 2016, 15:33

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

Barb has 3 hp, not 4. Scout has extra defence against ranged and x2 speed compared to barb in test version (i uploaded it on ts).
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Esthlos

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Post 04 Nov 2016, 18:12

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

vovets1 wrote:Barb has 3 hp, not 4.

Did you change it in the test version? (?)
In the latest official version of the Remake it's 4...

EDIT: you can use this scripted map to check it:
Test hp.zip


Scout has extra defence against ranged

True, forgot about that :$
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Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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vovets1

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Post 04 Nov 2016, 20:56

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

Wow, it's really 4. We'll think what to do =)
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Esthlos

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Post 05 Nov 2016, 10:13

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

vovets1 wrote:Wow, it's really 4. We'll think what to do =)

Since you used my test hp map, here's the test fight one (useful for pitting high numbers of units over a high number of battles) :mrgreen:
At 300x game speed this map requires a surprisingly small amount of time to run tests... for example, in just a few minutes I got the result (below) of 4000 battles :wink:

aaa Test Fight.zip


I used it to run both simulations:

50 militia vs 20 barbarians:

Formation: 20 columns per side, groups not split
Out of 500 battles, M won 26 (5%) (average survivors: 9 M, 11 B)

Formation: 20 columns per side, AI controlled each unit individually by splitting the groups
Out of 500 battles, M won 1 (0%) (average survivors: 2 M, 13 B)

Formation: 50 vs 20 columns, groups not split
Out of 500 battles, M won 45 (9%) (average survivors: 10 M, 9 B)

Formation: 50 vs 20 columns, AI controlled each unit individually by splitting the groups
Out of 500 battles, M won 0 (0%) (average survivors: 0 M, 13 B)

5 militia vs 2 barbarians:

Formation: 2 columns per side, groups not split
Out of 500 battles, M won 263 (53%) (average survivors: 3 M, 1 B)

Formation: 2 columns per side, AI controlled each unit individually by splitting the groups
Out of 500 battles, M won 163 (33%) (average survivors: 3 M, 2 B)

Formation: 5 vs 2 columns, groups not split
Out of 500 battles, M won 429 (86%) (average survivors: 3 M, 1 B)

Formation: 5 vs 2 columns, AI controlled each unit individually by splitting the groups
Out of 500 battles, M won 329 (66%) (average survivors: 3 M, 1 B)
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Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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vovets1

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Post 05 Nov 2016, 12:11

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

I used uniteditor, but nvm.

Thanks for the script

20 militia vs 8 barbs - 44-56. Not so bad, and this format is closer to reality of no pt or short pt games than 50 vs 20.
But we should remember that equipping militia in TH is not a good idea often. I have and idea to set rogue's cost from 2 to 1 gold. They will be useful on their game stage, but anyway lose against xbows and bows. And they will be well compined with militia from barracks. High amount of weak ranged will "summon" vagabonds, and rebels to counter vagazz. What do you think?

P.S. After a few tests i think that if rogue will cost 1 gold, his stats should be nerfed a little bit. Thanks for the map again, it will help very much
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The Dark Lord

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Post 05 Nov 2016, 13:57

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

I don't think any unit should be just 1 gold chest. That means you can spam soldiers as easily as serfs, which is completely ridiculous.
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vovets1

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Post 05 Nov 2016, 14:29

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

The Dark Lord wrote:I don't think any unit should be just 1 gold chest. That means you can spam soldiers as easily as serfs, which is completely ridiculous.


That's too hard to balance rogue's stats to make him usuable and not to make him imba. We can try, but i'm not sure...
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Esthlos

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Post 05 Nov 2016, 16:02

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

vovets1 wrote:Thanks for the script

:D

What do you think?

Personally, I think you should first of all define what their role should be.
In my opinion Town Hall units, or at least the Rebel/Rogue/Vagabond group, should fill the role of early fighters, the ones you make to rush or counter a rush.

In TPR they already did, being accessible early and requiring a resource you tend to have at start and can usually get more of fast.
To fit this role completely though imho they should be overpriced: they should be something you want to be able to buy early, but also something that becomes obsolete once you get your weapon production going.

As for the Barbarians, imho they could go in that same group as something strong but that you only buy when desperate or have lots of gold to waste; for this goal, they should be made overpriced too, either directly (by simply making them require more gold) or indirectly (adding an "activation fee" of some sort).

Alternatively, you could fit them in a rock-paper-scissors(-lizard-Spock) system with the Barracks units.
For example:
Image

Just my two cents. :)

P.S. By the way, would it be possible to have the TH work midway to the market and the school?
That is, when you click on the Train button it queues the chosen warriors, and only then the serfs start bringing in the required gold; this way the hassle of having to recruit them 1 at a time and having to keep checking back on the TH as you had to in TPS should be lessened...
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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vovets1

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Post 05 Nov 2016, 19:03

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

I think that rogues, rebels and vagas should be units for early stages, but now rogues are too weak for their cost, especially compared with barbs (2 barbs will be more useful than 5 rogues e.g.). So why i try to find a way to actualize them.

1st way: decrease rogue's cost from 2 to 1 gold, and decrease his stats a little bit. In this case you can equip a lot of rogues on early stage, but when you have to much of them, it would create some problems with controlling and protecting. And on 60 pt you don't need e.g. 80 rogues bcs they all won't shoot at the same time, and 40 bows will be much better. Moreover, rogues are worst in gunplay (bcs there's no siege weapons now :D ).
2nd way: cost will remain 2 gold, but rogue's stats will be upgraded (attack speed i think, as with bows). But this way is difficult enough, bcs we should create a unit, which will be useful on start, not imba in late and won't break logic laws :D
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ZblCoder

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Post 05 Nov 2016, 22:14

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

Slightly I correct a bug with the loss of resources, if the target is destroyed or died. Also, the take out of the goods from the building.
What do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zX9vUKMy7A
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thunder

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Post 06 Nov 2016, 07:37

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

Slightly I correct a bug with the loss of resources, if the target is destroyed or died. Also, the take out of the goods from the building.
What do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zX9vUKMy7A


There are good fuctions.

-Most of the players close the towers because those are under attack and don't want to lose serfs under the stone transporttion. The blocked towers can not guarantee If the serfs won't go there in this version. This function would make more busy serfs. Blocking houses good if you want to keep the base small , i mean not too much serfs.
If i close the building i close because i want to give different priority to the serfs and not because i want to remove the wares from the house or want to stopping the jobs there. I dont see clearly in the this version just have to click double fast and then takes out or if closed for long time then takes out? I mean is only one function added to the button?
This close/open the house function gives huge control in the game. The only thing -except the little triangles in the storehouse and barrack and of course the sliders of the wares-what can give good economy control. I think to taking out ware control would need a different button. Anyway those triangles would be nice in the restaurante/inn also. :mrgreen:

-Don't losing ware under the transportation is nice idea, finally!- how many times losing important weapons... But what happening if there is no building where to the serfs can carry the wares?

-The second part of the video is an interesting example.:) It can be interesting for the survalist style single player game modes :wink:
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