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Request for a new version of Remake

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thunder

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Post 02 Nov 2016, 17:37

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

About the speed. OKay this way the scout is much faster but not stronger. okay, true your points are right also.
BUT,
-too fast comparing them with the other troops
-Why not the knights are slower a bit?
-Should increase the speed of the leather units also???
-how the bonus scripts would handle the speed up? Most players are playing that.

I still think to making huge unit balance will make huge distorsion in the cost of the units at the economical side. the picture is bigger than just make faster scouts or make them useful at pt. As the 'pro players' used to say the scouts are useful in long games. Yes they are right. The scouts are not usualy trained at PT because the knights are more cheaper and easier under the PT and more effective. There are economical reasons and not only on 60minutes games. (need less buildings and can make more troops and stronger troops under PT...of course this theory is working only if we say eery players want to play his bests.)
I tested the speed buff and seems the scouts are uncatchable. have you tried to catch them with lances? No chance, even on normal speed either still no chances. Changing speed makes more units balance questions. What could catch scouts on an opened battlefield? If a shouter can not kill as you said fast target, so possible tanking/dancing/pressuring the group of bows.

I would agree with somekind of changes what would make different building ways whats are same kind of strong than knights+swordman+bow combo (need less building than the xbow+pike combo,,,etc...), but I see the solution on different way. We, here at the forum most of the times are talking about units balance and almost everytime there is an imba point...sometimes the bows are op sometimes the xbow, now the swordman+knights combo... Should research the economical side way deeper of the main strategies... When i say the biggest problem is the iron ore mining speed then most of the members are laughing and say you are noob and dont know the game etc... yes i dont know, but the scouts are out of the early games because rushing iron is easy. The first irontroops use to be almost 15-20minutes earlier than the first leather troops. Okay abusing leather is easy also, and seems infinty resources. But if would decrease with 30% the speed of the iron ore minig time.
What is the average army nowadays on 60minutes games? (i know not only 60minutes games are there, but this is what used for comparing the releases and this is the most constanly played peacetime without any speciel dynamic scripts)
10knights +20swords +40bows?
how would it change if there would be 30% less iron troops at the PT? Would the players go for more earlier farms to abuse the numbers of there leather troops? Or would chose different army combinations? Or would use the pikes and xbows much frequently becuse the players would not make small quality army?
10knights+10swords +40+bows or 15pikes+15xbows +40++bows(no horse strat-->way more leather)
I really beilive increasin the mining speed would make this kind of chages in the game. I'm sure its stronger changes than any unitbalance after 6720. It would give more strategies, but would not change the beating circle of the units which is quite nice now. Speed up makes lots of other questions.
Okay, its only my opinion and i discussed it already many times and nobody liked this idea because the early game should be mass iron....its like measuring who has larger golden tool...The players always asked whats the point of slow down the iron ore mining time. The point is the various strategies at PT. You will see more xbows, pikes and scouts then now. of course On two mines map also can make 30iron troops but that is already map problem. Ive seen many games on 2mines map and Ive seen the differences. The games were way more various and funnyier than the normal knghts+swords bows combo...
but its only one opinion.I hope other players will give you their opinions also.
cheers!
:wink:
// I played mostly on 60minutes normal speed-its just because im a noob who dont know bonus 3x3x game.
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vovets1

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Post 02 Nov 2016, 18:03

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

Thunder, you forgot one very important thing. Advantages of iron troops are ability to be built earlier and their strength. As for leather, you can't build it even on 30 min i think, so it apeears later, but when it does, amount of leather troops increases rapidly. And with well leather production after pt you'll get about 5 leather soldiers in a minute and only 1 iron.
Every unit has his own time of using
Militia - 10-40(50) min or in late for emptying towers.
Xbows and pikes - 25-until end of the game if you like strat with them, or until 45 min if not
Sword - 45 min - until the end (of early stages pikes are better bcs there are not so much ranged)
Bow - 40 min-until the end
Knight - 30-until the end
Axes - 60(70)-until the end. When you have about 50 bows, no need to do more. So you can do axes
Lance - after 45 when knights appears, then you can do them to counter
Scout - after about 3th hour of a game bcs of out of iron core.

And this is not normal.
But why upgrading scout and not fixing iron production? Because we want to add Townhall (surprice). If iron soldier become weaker, then barbs will be imba only bcs of their amount. And if increase their cost... Why we should make so many complicated steps if we can just upgrade one unit and not to touch the others?

As for catching... for what? If you are to protect your town from Scout's invasion, you just should send on enters to your loc some troops, not even lances, any troops+towers. If you want to protect ranged, then you shouldn't run after scouts, just stay lances behind and they will protect. Who can catch Scout? Scout! (surprice x2).
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thunder

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Post 02 Nov 2016, 18:47

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

Advantages of iron troops are ability to be built earlier and their strength..

One of the reasons why should slows down the mining time.
The players dislike to playing with slow amount of iron troops at PT. This is why leather only locations and the maps with few ironmine are not popular. Look the Final frontier has imba iron locations. Those locations are funny to build with iron strategies. This is a very hard question and already lot depend from the map, but the point is the players like the mass iron troops at pt. (players use to chose maps where can make 1000000000units even the quality of the maps are not counting :'( )there is no point to train leather troops , only the bows has sense to train them at PT. Because your leather army versus mass ironarmy is nothing. Reason is the L-I rates of the army. (leather-iron rates)
Nowadays normaly iron+leather is approximately 42%iron +58% leather. what can do your 58% of leather troops vs 42% of irontroops?
But if would change the rates of the pt army somewhere to irontroops 28%-leather troops 72%, i mean less iron more leather, than the scouts strategy could work also. The ironunits should have to be a bonus units, not a big mess something...And you can do this with decreasing the iron ore mining time. This would give more various strategies and changed only one thing. Of course the community won't like it because less iron troops will be there at pt, but the mines will be opened longer and of course have to think on the maps which have only 2mines now....nobody will choose them because no good iron PT there? :?


But why upgrading scout and not fixing iron production? Because we want to add Townhall (surprice). If iron soldier become weaker, then barbs will be imba only bcs of their amount. And if increase their cost... Why we should make so many complicated steps if we can just upgrade one unit and not to touch the others?

Would have to handle the scout issue and TH issue separately. TH is not acceptable on the origianl way to me. I want to see TH and units also but on different way. The ironsoilders should not be weaker, that was only a question then why not will be knights a bit slower? Anyway then the Vagabond will run with 4times speed because even lighter than the scouts? Still can balance and adjust the TH troops strengh to the game;) The original barrack units have good balance.
The TH should be another topic.

As for catching... for what? If you are to protect your town from Scout's invasion, you just should send on enters to your loc some troops, not even lances, any troops+towers. If you want to protect ranged, then you shouldn't run after scouts, just stay lances behind and they will protect. Who can catch Scout? Scout! (surprice x2).

Yes, catching them is also a good question. What type of units could counter them if there isn't huge chance to catch them? maybe the knights? but then why would i have to train scouts if the knights has the largest chance to kill the scouts? then again no point of train the scouts.
anyway the towers are still weak. not need scouts to make them empty(knights can do it also). Should increase the 5stones to 7 or 8. Some players make only 1-2 towers to see what is around, not waste timber to make them. The fast scout is almost unhitabe by towers and ranged units. I'm worry a bit.

There was a time when scouts strategie was good, when you could buy the horse for 2 ironbars in the market. Then could make over 60pcs after 60mins PT. Then it was good. :P

Please don't misunderstand me, as I said scouts are my favourite units in this game and I also wish to be there good strategy to train them, but for me the speed up seems a solution for the not real problem what only makes more balance questions and poblematic situations. The real problem is in the economy...
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vovets1

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Post 02 Nov 2016, 21:45

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

Now players use knights to catch knights, so if players use scouts to catch scouts, will it be a problem? I don't think so.
As for Vagabond, imagine that his horse is weak =) Bcs upgrading vagabond as a bad idea bcs you can equip TH units on 20 minute, and on this period they are very powerful. This is why i want to make them more expencive.
Towers are powerful now. Maybe not so powerful on 60 pt, but enough on 50 pt and less.
If we make knight A BIT slower, it won't save the situation. Mb we will make both slower knight (but not really slow) and save scout's speed as we did. But we'll see it after tests, now scout show himself well.
I don't really now why do you want to upgrade leather troops. I think that they are nice now, except scout. Bows are the pivot in a main strategy, axes are good when you have enough bows, lances can protect your ranged from horses. You said that players like locs with 5 iron mines, but then why there are so few maps with opened farm at the beginning?
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thunder

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Post 03 Nov 2016, 08:46

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

I don't really now why do you want to upgrade leather troops.

Its funny, maybe did not understand me well. I don't want to upgrade units/troops or making the leather troops stronger. Actually you upgrade one of the leather troops. :mrgreen:
I said:
-units are balanced
-reason of the missing troops like mass scouts or mass lancers is on the economyc side ---> change the rates/mix of the army type--->make more effective strategies.
-speed up of the scouts make more imba questions.

But i see the game differently then mnormal players. :?
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sado1

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Post 03 Nov 2016, 09:44

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

thunder wrote:This is why leather only locations and the maps with few ironmine are not popular. Look the Final frontier has imba iron locations.

How can you even put these two sentences one after another? TFF is one of the very popular maps, and it has 4 locs with weak iron. A loc doesn't have to have only 2 mines if you want the iron to be a challenge. If the iron is extremely far away, you have to focus more on the leather. It's common to have about 20 iron troops on these locs, as opposed to 30 on most of the maps. Rich Land is also insanely popular - if not the most popular 8P map - despite 2 leather locs and the other locs' iron productions aren't the easiest to set up either (prime example being 1, but 6 and 7 are also quite annoying, even if people usually have about 30 iron troops there)

I'll go as far to even say that in most of the cases, it's completely irrelevant for the popularity of the map, how the locations are supposed to be played. The single one most important thing deciding whether a map is a success or a flop, is how good is the battlefield. Of course sometimes people are reluctant to play a map with some extreme locs - my Dance of Death is the prime example, but who would want to play on a loc that is destined to be invaded up to the point of being destroyed, with a 50% chance? (the other 50% is that the other team's middle loc will be destroyed instead.

About scouts invading cities: just do what you do right now but use a scout instead of a knight - catch with scout, kill with whatever melee units you can produce at Barracks at the moment.

Personally, I think discussions of this scale (already a page of TL;DR length posts) are utterly pointless - we need to play a month worth of games (at least!) to know whether these all ideas work, or not. So far only there's only one balance change implemented - scout speed being slightly increased. My first look at the modified version reassured me that this change was done in the proper way - the scout doesn't seem TOO fast, just slightly faster. It's too early to be sure, but I think it will still be easy to catch with a knight in a city.
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Krom

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Post 03 Nov 2016, 11:56

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

sado1 wrote:Personally, I think discussions of this scale (already a page of TL;DR length posts) are utterly pointless - we need to play a month worth of games (at least!) to know whether these all ideas work, or not.


With that I fully agree. Building theories is one thing, but actual playtests for prolonged time are completely the other.
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thunder

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Post 03 Nov 2016, 16:51

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

How can you even put these two sentences one after another?

That just wanted to be an example about the players like those maps and locs where mass ironabusing is possible. I've heard it many times it's okay to start with many irontroops, the leather troops are okay for late games when already the ironmines are depleted.
Building theories is one thing

Well, I could imagine more similar effective building strategies whit similar srenght. The units strenght are balanced, the cost of them is not. :?
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The Dark Lord

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Post 03 Nov 2016, 16:59

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

In a game with little diversity in units, it is to be expected that there will be little diversity in strategies. You can change the balance a hundred times, but in the end there will always be one strategy that is considered 'the strongest' and will be used by most players. There are no air units that you have to counter, you don't need detection for units that are invisible, there is no way to rush in a slow-paced game with high peace time settings, there is no way to make camping worth it. In my opinion there is only one way to see different strategies: setting peace time on 30-40 minutes. Because then it WILL make a difference if you choose for militia, leather or iron or a combination of some. But after 60 minutes, you don't need to focus: everyone can make everything.
Is KaM doomed, then? Maybe. Personally I would love to test a KaM with serfs and other workers that can defend themselves to some extent so that peace time is no longer required. Towers inside your base might become a good idea. It becomes possible to rush your opponent. But also to 'camp', maybe at the cost of some villagers, to strike back with leather or iron units. The marketplace might become more important too.
But I guess I digress. I just feel like it doesn't matter if the scout gets buffed a bit; within 2 months everyone will have decided that it is best to make 2-3 scouts to scout your enemy quickly and then just kill everything with the standard army. Only the town hall or siege weapons could add to the diversity.

Just my two cents.
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thunder

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Post 03 Nov 2016, 19:04

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

Towers inside your base might become a good idea.

The first thing was why I got ban from MP games long time ago :P

Yes, you used the right word: army diversity. This is what would not change after scout buff.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 03 Nov 2016, 19:53

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

Yeah. In most games balancing is much easier because you just have 1 or 2 resources with which you can build everything. In KaM you can balance and balance and balance and make axe fighters + crossbowmen as strong as sword fighters + bowmen, but that's just not comparable because of the production chains. To make it really balanced you need to rearrange the whole economical side, which is a no-go.
So my suggestion: Lets try without peace time!
(Yes this really comes from good ol' conservative me.)
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Ben

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Post 03 Nov 2016, 22:53

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

The Dark Lord wrote:...So my suggestion: Lets try without peace time!


+1 from me. I enjoy this game way more without the ridiculous (yes, I said it) peacetime. However, I propose lower peacetime as opposed to just removing it completely. 40 minutes tops, but 30 is nice imo. But hey, people want to play 60 minute peacetime because building and fighting at the same time is "too hard." (funny, because players like that would be called noobs in most other games)
#thunderposting #greentornado
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vovets1

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Post 03 Nov 2016, 23:41

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

Lordo, i love 35 pt very much for its variety of strategies, but scout is useless everywhen expect cases whn you have out of iron (very late game).
0pt is possible now on special maps with good defence and blocked market. Market created imba on 0pt. The best idea is adding start storehouse with a ranged on its roof (you have it only on start, so you can't build it). We don't know how powerful should it be, but this method won't create imba on late stages as changing serfs to soldiers do. Bcs you can't increase amount of this pew-pew-Storehouse
But to be honest, this is not a priority now. Bcs fun club of 0 pt is small enough, so, let's start with short pt. And here adding TH will give even more strategies.
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Killer!!

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Post 04 Nov 2016, 08:33

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

Do you mean by adding the townhall the actual building from TPR with the units? Or just add a specific dynamic script?
Also what about the siege workshop, cuz tbh I think that most people would rather see a comeback of the catapults and ballista instead of the townhall and its units.

Although I'd like to see the both back in their original state :)
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Esthlos

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Post 04 Nov 2016, 11:23

Re: Request for a new version of Remake

About leather vs iron: why not just make units eat more, at least at the start? (Having their starting hunger bar be lower when created in the school might be enough...)
This way leather is incentivized (because it gives food too) and iron rush strategies may start to make more bread (gives more food per farm used than sausages).

About townhall: what about adding either a "reputation" or a "license" mechanic?
Reputation: TH units become gradually available the more wares you produced/the more buildings you have/the more units you killed/etc (e.g. you can buy Militia almost immediately but Barbarians won't be interested in working for you until you have already made, say, 100 weapons).
License: you need to gradually invest X amount of resources in the TH before being able to buy increasingly stronger units.
After all, aren't TH units supposed to be mercenaries?

The Dark Lord wrote:Personally I would love to test a KaM with serfs and other workers that can defend themselves to some extent so that peace time is no longer required.

As far as I remember it was suggested already to add town guards in the school as uncontrollable early fighters that would patrol the streets and respond to early aggressors.
Pros: they defend your town vs rushes and invasions
Cons: they eat up your food and occupy your streets without aiding your economy
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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