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Regarding siege workshop and town hall

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sado1

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Post 15 Sep 2014, 16:20

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

Personally I don't see the graphical thing as something that's the biggest reason not to include siege weapons. Balance is the biggest one for me. I know how slow is the reaction of the developers for balance problems. Well, it wasn't intended as an insult, I am just stating a fact: after people see something is over/underpowered, usually a year passes before there is a new version which fixes these problems. Even with testing RCs it's like, each month we can have some changes in the balance, and the feedback itself takes time too. In my opinion, before we even will try to introduce siege weapons, we need to first estabilish a proper way of trying new things in balance. Temporary lobby settings for unit balance (only for an RC) or something like that could speed the balancing up - testers could change the unit stats themselves and try to look for better solutions. I know it's a very radical idea, but that's the only one I got so far.

As for singleplayer only, it feels strange for me to have two versions of the game (sorry TDL! :P). I'd much rather take the similar-yet-more-consistent-with-the-rest-of-the-game approach: no siege workshop yet, only spawnable siege units. I dunno if I want to make them usable with dynamic scripts, since that might make people make their own siege workshops etc. Also, I propose to massively underpower them first, and then to start balancing the weapons "upwards" (let's try to make them kinda as useful as xbows are nowadays - not rly but sometimes why not). I really really am afraid to break the current unit balance.




One single thing that makes me stay distant from the whole siege and townhall affair is how persistently everybody here keeps complaining and raging at the devs. Really, for such an awesome game which improved over the years SO MUCH, there is no need to get almost emotional. Don't you already like what you see in the game? I am indifferent towards those TPR potential additions, but balance is everything for me and you don't really seem to appreciate that there'd be quite a bit of work needed, and also quite quite many things to be potentially screwed up.

That being said, I agree with dicso that in our current TS multiplayer gameplay, siege would be next to useless. I dunno about the townhall though, it largely depends if its role is changed to work better during peacetime etc.
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dicsoupcan

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Post 15 Sep 2014, 16:29

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

well sado you are correct, but do not forget that kam brings so many nostalgic feelings about the original which also happen to include tpr whcih happen to have siege engines. this is most likely one of the reasons keep persisting to get them ingame. i for instance, would love to make use of them to create some aweomse singleplayer missions hich is why i would be ok with a sp only inclusion. but in temrs of the balance argument i just wanted to post my opinion based on the current metagame. a few releases ago i would still have told that siege engines would be a bad idea. but thanks to these many bugfixes, unit balance tweaking and efficiency tweaking ( farm patch was a major efficicncy tweak which impacted the game more then anyone would have predicted) the way the game is played changed aswell. i actually think the remake has grown enough to finally set sail towards siege engines, although the route to including them needs to be carefully monitored.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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Kamykos

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Post 15 Sep 2014, 16:49

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

I really appreciate that I can play this game the way it is now and I really like that devs try to answer every question and idea(even this impossible ones). Devs make very good job for free and this is great. I just wanted to know if adding machines to the game is even possible in future and if yes, how long this future can be. :P Sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean that.
Back to machines: I agree with dicsoupcan about balance. I think they are weak because of their slow movement and poor armour. On "campy" maps they can be overpowered but on normal maps I think they are not that strong. As sado said more tests would make it easier to balance.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 15 Sep 2014, 20:05

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

Balance is actually a minor thing for me, because I am 100% sure we can work that out. The biggest problem is convincing Krom and Lewin to implement siege weapons at all. :P
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sado1

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Post 15 Sep 2014, 20:37

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

Balance is actually a minor thing for me, because I am 100% sure we can work that out.
Was that serious? You know how much time would have to pass before both the "siege weapons too weak" and "siege weapons too powerful" guys would come to an agreement? ;x
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The Dark Lord

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Post 15 Sep 2014, 21:26

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

Balance is actually a minor thing for me, because I am 100% sure we can work that out.
Was that serious? You know how much time would have to pass before both the "siege weapons too weak" and "siege weapons too powerful" guys would come to an agreement? ;x
Yes that was totally serious. :) Of course it will take much time, but eventually we should be able to find the perfect balance. But see it this way: what's the use of discussing balance if siege equipment will never be added anyway? ;)
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Ben

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Post 15 Sep 2014, 22:46

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

TDL for president.

I say it again: We are testers. Can we please test stuff? I'm amazed that seige equipment hasn't had a chance to be tested after all the cries for it.
Also, I propose to massively underpower them first, and then to start balancing the weapons "upwards" (let's try to make them kinda as useful as xbows are nowadays - not rly but sometimes why not). I really really am afraid to break the current unit balance.
This is actually a very smart approach. This way, instead of breaking game balance, testers will simply just not make them if they are not good ;)
I used to spam this forum so much...
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thunder

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Post 15 Sep 2014, 23:01

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

TH:one th isnt op. Th is good only train sonme horse units.
More th is interedting,but need lot gold. Trading everything to gold and abusing gold...hm maybe 30 barbs under pt.
Siege:the weakest units on the planet.still serfs could beat these units. 5Timber5ironbar.
please chose:2 siege units or 5xbows+5milities?.
And who cares about the single siege units? Have you ever seen tank driver?
These units could be good only for defence. Abuse campers.isnt there enough?
But i can image these units in NO tower games where siege units could like active towers... but really rather the labourers for defending.

About the tests.yes could be good to see what is possible in mp games with these building. We discuss lot theoretical thing but the real sometimes gives interesting solutions.
Personaly i tested on th. 22 recruits and 7vaga on a medium loc.40units could be trained from baarrack if there is enough recruits.this was my first th test in multigame. Conclusion...use gold in th and you will have less trained traditional units.
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zombie01

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Post 16 Sep 2014, 05:31

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

TDL for president.

I say it again: We are testers. Can we please test stuff? I'm amazed that seige equipment hasn't had a chance to be tested after all the cries for it.
Also, I propose to massively underpower them first, and then to start balancing the weapons "upwards" (let's try to make them kinda as useful as xbows are nowadays - not rly but sometimes why not). I really really am afraid to break the current unit balance.
This is actually a very smart approach. This way, instead of breaking game balance, testers will simply just not make them if they are not good ;)
perhaps siege weapons could be more like, I dunno, SIEGE weapons?
They deal less damage to soldiers but more damage to buildings?
Slightly offcourse in both directions else they are op.
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Kamykos

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Post 16 Sep 2014, 06:02

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

TDL for president.

I say it again: We are testers. Can we please test stuff? I'm amazed that seige equipment hasn't had a chance to be tested after all the cries for it.
Also, I propose to massively underpower them first, and then to start balancing the weapons "upwards" (let's try to make them kinda as useful as xbows are nowadays - not rly but sometimes why not). I really really am afraid to break the current unit balance.
This is actually a very smart approach. This way, instead of breaking game balance, testers will simply just not make them if they are not good ;)
perhaps siege weapons could be more like, I dunno, SIEGE weapons?
They deal less damage to soldiers but more damage to buildings?
Slightly offcourse in both directions else they are op.
That's a great idea. And what about giving them +1(or more?) tiles of range since they should be safe from enemy arrows(and they have weak defence).
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zombie01

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Post 19 Sep 2014, 06:33

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

I had expected Ben, or Lewin or any other important figure to shoot my idea down.
But It seems this thread has been forgotten
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Kamykos

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Post 19 Sep 2014, 08:52

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

I think Lewin and Krom are busy with making new release of Remake and they don't think about machines right now. But they didn't tell (in that topic) that they won't add machines at all which is nice. :mrgreen:
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Brolian

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Post 19 Sep 2014, 10:50

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

The new release add many things. For by new scripts we can make new type missions.
I too plan to give some idea for new elements, house, units.
I think we can make easier by scripts so we can add some idea such as siege workshop. Just it must be model WorkShop for example.
For example after release, like Lewin / Krom add folder with model new houses and units.
Then we can by scripts add thats things to map.
Ofc normally we cannot build Siege workshop but by script yes :-)
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Krom

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Post 19 Sep 2014, 10:59

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

@Brolian: We have discussed this. If we add Siege, it will be throughout the whole game (except TSK).
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
KaM Remake at: http://www.kamremake.com
Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
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Brolian

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Post 19 Sep 2014, 11:57

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

Yes i agree with You Krom, and i read all discussion.
Maybe i write mine post in wrog sense like add siege work shop.
With six units from siege work shop i killed all army mine enemy in original K&M.

What i mean, maybe it can be do, and create special folder in Kam:Remake, where we can add model units and houses.
By using scripts we can change K$M a lot.
i wrote some post on Polish forum:
http://knights.sztab.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3436
I have plan to use units like special hero, where player can make some things and the story line will go.
So add special units for hero models, or building. Just for story line.
This is example :-)
I do not need new models, in mine Campaign i just use standart houses and units, but i gve a example :-)
Ofc i add many ideas in post in Polish forum.

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