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Regarding siege workshop and town hall

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Krom

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Knights Province Developer

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Post 19 Sep 2014, 12:36

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

Adding such kind of mods is a very big work for us and for anyone who wants to add them.

1. We would need to redesign many parts of the game to allow to append new elements and change existing ones behavior on account to that.
2. Mapmaker would need to create a sufficient quality artwork to be used (graphics, sound, voices, etc.). Graphics is the most hard part.

We are just 2 individuals programming in our hobby time. When we do it, we want it to be meaningful. That is why we tend to add things that will be actually used.
So far I can not recall anyone doing anything bigger than combining a new house from a couple of others, or adding snow effect on roofs or making a new unit by palette shifting armor color. For such "one-time" cases it is better to work with the "modder" and do the hardcode (if that is a fit to the game), than invent a complicated system that will remain unused.
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
KaM Remake at: http://www.kamremake.com
Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
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Leeuwgie

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Sword Fighter

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Post 19 Sep 2014, 13:20

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

Personally I don't see the graphical thing as something that's the biggest reason not to include siege weapons. Balance is the biggest one for me. I know how slow is the reaction of the developers for balance problems.
Well, I play this game here for way over 2 years and I don't regret that most (read all) of them were played as testgames in the different beta-versions we had. Helping a game getting better is never a waste of time. I used to be a beta tester for EA games in the past, changing gameplay for official games usually take way longer (if not never) in my experience.
Well, it wasn't intended as an insult, I am just stating a fact: after people see something is over/underpowered, usually a year passes before there is a new version which fixes these problems.


Just look at the bright side of things and see what we changed so far; several unit nerfs/buffs, feeding time for citizens restored, better working farms, a 100% working map editor (including power scripting), radius fixes for workers, killed laborer to empty tower tactic, countless market tweaks, vineyards buffed and the best of all: we brought shielded units back to the game. My point is, what is time in a timeless game like KaM?
Even with testing RCs it's like, each month we can have some changes in the balance, and the feedback itself takes time too. In my opinion, before we even will try to introduce siege weapons, we need to first estabilish a proper way of trying new things in balance. Temporary lobby settings for unit balance (only for an RC) or something like that could speed the balancing up - testers could change the unit stats themselves and try to look for better solutions. I know it's a very radical idea, but that's the only one I got so far.
Dear Sado, no such thing is needed. Doing things the old way is usually better. Sometimes it takes time before changes have their effect. The crossbowman was slightly buffed but wasn't used for a long time (probably because players have the habbit to stick to their usual unit combinations) to name an example where time is our friend :). And sometimes lobby settings will bring more harm than good to the community (look how divided it is now because of the implemented speed setting). So I prefer to test unchangeable changes (if that makes any sense :D )
As for singleplayer only, it feels strange for me to have two versions of the game (sorry TDL! :P).
I agree (allthough the absence of the market in SP is a good thing I think).
Also, I propose to massively underpower them first, and then to start balancing the weapons "upwards" (let's try to make them kinda as useful as xbows are nowadays - not rly but sometimes why not). I really really am afraid to break the current unit balance.
I disagree, it makes no sense adding a useless unit (it will not be used and not be tested as a result). Remember that warmachines already have 3 weaknesses, their insanely high cost, extremely weak to both melee and ranged and they are limited to sieging only. Nonetheless I like to see them added so we can test if they improve the game like shielded units do now.
One single thing that makes me stay distant from the whole siege and townhall affair is how persistently everybody here keeps complaining and raging at the devs. Really, for such an awesome game which improved over the years SO MUCH, there is no need to get almost emotional. Don't you already like what you see in the game? I am indifferent towards those TPR potential additions, but balance is everything for me and you don't really seem to appreciate that there'd be quite a bit of work needed, and also quite quite many things to be potentially screwed up..
Hmm, now don't make it personal my friend, you know as well as me that raging and crying will only help kids under a certain age to get what they want and has never lead to improvement here or in the games we play. And yes I like what I see in the game but ask yourself the question why the game is how it is like today..... That's right because a certain group of players (including you) were willing to test new changes over the years and we have developers who are willing to make this game even better. But I must admit that the balance we have now is the best we ever had (with the exception of the scout all units are used ingame).
That being said, I agree with dicso that in our current TS multiplayer gameplay, siege would be next to useless. I dunno about the townhall though, it largely depends if its role is changed to work better during peacetime etc.
Some said the same before the shield bonus (or any other change) was implemented. You can never know if it's useless if you never try it :wink:
No matter what, always keep smiling ~ Bassie (from Bassie & Adriaan)
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Killer!!

Sword Fighter

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Post 19 Sep 2014, 13:45

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

I am just wondering why we are talking so much about this for already quite along time and there are never been any tests with the siege workshops. I mean what´s the point talking about this topic for ages without even trying to use our ideas in the beta, because that´s 1 of the reasons it´s called a beta isn´t it? To try these things ( new things) out and find a good balance, and if it doens't works well or we don't like it we can just remove it and stop discussing about the ideas we already tested, because now we are just repeating the same ideas about siege workshops for already a long time... ;)
Do you want to play with/against me? Just write me a PM :D
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Kamykos

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Pikeman

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Post 19 Sep 2014, 15:32

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

Well if somebody don't want people to talk about siege weapons then he should give some serious argument why they are not needed. :P This is a forum so its purpose is to talk about things and I think there is nothing wrong with repeating the same ideas if they are good and people forgot about them. ;) I agree with some people here that balancing machines needs time so I hope we can start it as soon as it is possible. :P
My point is, what is time in a timeless game like KaM?
To, did you study philosophy or something? :) Nice sentence. :P
@Brolian: We have discussed this. If we add Siege, it will be throughout the whole game (except TSK).
But do you still want to wait for someone to make new sprites for pushing/pulling machines? Or self moving issue is not a problem anymore?
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Brolian

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Recruit

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Post 19 Sep 2014, 17:14

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

@ to Krom, i understand, but i wanted just ask :-) Maybe its just a simple folder, but it need to change too many things.
You added many scripts, by using it we can now change many things. So new building and units its bad idea.

@ to Kamykos, i do not wanted siege. It was a example for add folder where we can put new models for units and houses, but its bad idea as Krom said.
Now Krom and Lewin made a very great job. And making :-) I just will help as i can, for example make new campaign.
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Kamykos

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Pikeman

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Post 02 Oct 2014, 18:04

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

From shoutbox:
Kamykos - 26 Sep 2014, 15:46
Balancing siege weapons is planned after release of windows 11 so I think yes...
http://www.ghacks.net/2014/09/30/why-th ... and-not-9/

Even Microsoft is on our side!




Okay, sorry that was the last post about siege weapons for this month from me. :)
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Ben

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Former Site Admin

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Post 02 Oct 2014, 18:59

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

Meh, skipping Win9 has nothing to do with siege weapons. The reason they skipped Windows 9 is because 7 "ate" 9 ;)
I used to spam this forum so much...
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Esthlos

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Knight

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Post 02 Oct 2014, 22:46

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

joke
:P :wink:
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Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Ben

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Post 03 Oct 2014, 00:42

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

Nope, unless you are joking, too. Look at my post again, and try to stop the joke from going over your head ;)
I used to spam this forum so much...
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The Dark Lord

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King Karolus Servant

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Post 03 Oct 2014, 15:06

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

From shoutbox:
Kamykos - 26 Sep 2014, 15:46
Balancing siege weapons is planned after release of windows 11 so I think yes...
http://www.ghacks.net/2014/09/30/why-th ... and-not-9/

Even Microsoft is on our side!




Okay, sorry that was the last post about siege weapons for this month from me. :)
LOL
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Moist Face

Woodcutter

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Joined: 20 Sep 2014, 11:09

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Location: Latvia

Post 04 Oct 2014, 14:33

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

My fan art. :) (H)
Image
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The Dark Lord

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King Karolus Servant

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Post 04 Oct 2014, 15:02

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

I like it very much, but I'm not sure about what to conclude from it. Or does it have an open ending?
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Kamykos

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Pikeman

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Post 04 Oct 2014, 15:24

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

My fan art. :) (H)
Image
HL3 in left top corner. Half life 3 confirmed.
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Moist Face

Woodcutter

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Post 04 Oct 2014, 15:27

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

I like it very much, but I'm not sure about what to conclude from it. Or does it have an open ending?
I'm trying to say, that knights should ride lizards instead of horses. :P
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Aftalion

Post 07 Oct 2014, 01:42

Re: Regarding siege workshop and town hall

Hi all

I just wanted to share my 2 cents about Sieges with the community.


About balance Sieges overpower:

Many functional things have bean say and we can always balance things.

- Siege Need a formation with alive unit (1 by x amount of unit or by 1 formation...)
- More damage on building than unit... (personaly, I love to see normal unit die with 1 balistat, Knights maybe 2, etc.)
(I suggest to include a miss target, can reduce a lot there effectiveness, also just slowing down the reload, a very effective & easy
manageable implementation to fix a problem.)
- Many more...


About "magical" moving Sieges:

We can point many stelar RTS game of the pass & present that don't have people pushing it, in fact is a rarity when we saw them.

I would like more to have all Knights & Merchants autenticity than not have them at all only because of there look.
Pushing dudes is nice, but for what I read from the team, problematic time consuming to do graphics. (+ they will not be a true K&M game)
The majority of who want them back in-game, can live with what there look like anyway.


Just to point out an additional thing related to realisme:

Personnaly, I would prefer a lot more to destroy building with ranged siege, ...than use little arrows to destroy buildings!
It look bad and the gameplay is not top nocth too.


We can implement them for sure, with huge rework or relatively easy. And for many that don't like them, we only need a checkbox to toggle siege avaibility before start a match. This is maybe, the only way we can resolve this wanted/unwanted gameplay "community problem", which is also an important one! I want also to hire mercenaries :P


A BIG Thanks for the KAM Remake team, GoOd work!
Have a nice week,
Aftalion

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