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Timing ironproduction

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thunder

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Post 15 Mar 2014, 10:26

Timing ironproduction

Hi!

I search topic for thiskind of idea, but i didnt found so i created.

The idea is playing with stonehills.:)
We are using stone for roads, buildings and towers, but after PT the most players have ready cities and the stone is just going to only for towers. Rarely when players trading stone or building new building under the fighting time./if building something new that wont be as effective than under the PT/

Some months ago i had an idea. Its on the picture. I made some tests already and worked well. This is when the players cant rush the iron because at first should to rush the stone. 2-300stone can make 10-15mins delay in the ironproduction.
I already have some different plan with this. For example bonus ironhills for the players. Or bonus iron for leather only locations etc...

:)

PS:
If i know well there was a TSK map also where the shortest way between the AI and the player was an stonehill-but of course the longer way was the winner:).
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Tiank

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Post 15 Mar 2014, 10:44

Re: Timing ironproduction

I like it! It can even force player to trade stone for something in early game. I had idea of trading stone for corn (5:1), which is long, but with proper amount of quarries is profitable (especially during 60PT).

A map, where there are 2-3 iron mines' spaces available at start, but extra 2-3 hidden behind stone mountains, would be interesting. Player has a choice - go for standard iron build with available iron mountains, or some extra iron with trading stone for something. Bonus iron mountains on leather only maps/locs would be nice as well :).

By the way, it was TSK11, where stone mountains were between player and enemy. When enemy mined all the stone, he attacked through this gap.

And Thunder, since it's you, who gave this idea first, you should make a map like that as an example :).
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thunder

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Post 15 Mar 2014, 11:00

Re: Timing ironproduction

As I told i had already tried out this kind of iron mountain i just still don't figurat out how, where, and when can i start to drawing a map with this.
My map idea is a little bit crazy and complicated(i have this idea more than one years, but huge and need lots of working on it, this is the reason why I havent started yet:) ).
But im sure i will have this kind of hills on a map.;)

Here is the first test from the previous year(r5540).
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Nissarin

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Post 15 Mar 2014, 11:42

Re: Timing ironproduction

This is interesting idea but I don't like what I see in the picture ;) Since you can't control individual units (workers) in KaM you can't tell how long it would take to clear the stone - it could be under 15mins like you said but if you get screwed (by RNG) it could take 30mins. Also, if you are making "extra" quarries this means you are not making building which are actually useful, you also need more serfs and possibly additional store house. This may slow you down even more and I have a feeling this would not work too well on standard 60min pt game..
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The Dark Lord

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Post 15 Mar 2014, 15:56

Re: Timing ironproduction

I agree with Nissarin; this is nice for singleplayer but too imbalanced for multiplayer.
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Killer!!

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Post 15 Mar 2014, 20:57

Re: Timing ironproduction

it don't look natrual aswell
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Tiank

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Post 16 Mar 2014, 16:06

Re: Timing ironproduction

In editor you can easily choose between mineable stonemountains and ones that are not mineable. They look very similar. With good placement and shaping it could look natural and you can be sure that sonemasons will mine only that place and you can predict more or less how much time it would take to make a gap. (I agree, that there's too much stone in that picture).

About slowing down economy in 60 PT, I'm not so sure about it. Of course, going for extra iron montains would mean, that it slows down your corn production, but maybe with trading it wouldn't be that bad. Additional storehouse wouldn't be needed if you trade extra stone.

I'd like to test a map like that for sure :).

*I made a small test. With 3 quarries, you mine 300 stone in 30 minutes. When trading it, you'll get 60 corn. For comparison, 3 farms would give you about 70 corn after 30 minutes. Difference isn't that big, of course it's better to have farms, but when going for extra iron, having extra corn at the same time is pretty useful I think. But still, it's only a test.
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Ben

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Post 16 Mar 2014, 17:13

Re: Timing ironproduction

The amount of serfs that you would need to trade 300 stone.... you'd really ruin your econemy doing this alone.

Why not just make a script that enables the iron mine after 30 minutes? :P
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Nissarin

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Post 16 Mar 2014, 17:28

Re: Timing ironproduction

In editor you can easily choose between mineable stonemountains and ones that are not mineable. They look very similar. With good placement and shaping it could look natural and you can be sure that sonemasons will mine only that place and you can predict more or less how much time it would take to make a gap. (I agree, that there's too much stone in that picture).
If you mixed both types of stone it could be misleading for players who might try to rush iron and build most of their quarries next to iron (which would run out pretty soon).
About slowing down economy in 60 PT, I'm not so sure about it. Of course, going for extra iron montains would mean, that it slows down your corn production, but maybe with trading it wouldn't be that bad. Additional storehouse wouldn't be needed if you trade extra stone.
In order to have decent army at PT you must play extra greedy, timing your buildings pretty well (building them when they are needed), going out of your way to have that extra iron is going to slow you down. For comparison look at any map where iron is quite far from your starting point - you just have make some compromise, you can't have both.
*I made a small test. With 3 quarries, you mine 300 stone in 30 minutes. When trading it, you'll get 60 corn. For comparison, 3 farms would give you about 70 corn after 30 minutes. Difference isn't that big, of course it's better to have farms, but when going for extra iron, having extra corn at the same time is pretty useful I think. But still, it's only a test.
You have to build a farm anyway to unlock other buildings, your stone will eventually run out, you have to train lots of serfs (lets assume one farm needs one serf, one corn needs five stones), deal with possible traffic jams, not to mention additional iron mines won't just spit out swords and shields and so on, you need coal mines, smelters, etc.
Every strategy that relies heavily on market is essentially an all-in strategy, you win fast or die slowly because of starvation and lack of real economy.
I just don't see it working in multiplayer and more importantly you can achieve the same effect by just pacing (additional) iron mines a bit farther than normal.
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Tiank

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Post 16 Mar 2014, 20:08

Re: Timing ironproduction

@Ben: Not really. In this situation, even if these 3 quarries are fulll (18 stone), I noticed only 10 serfs out of 30 idle delivering stone to market when I started trading. I also noticed, that trading isn't that high in priority, so it doesn't damage economy that much. And that 300 stone mountain was just an example.

@Nissarin: This idea probably won't work on a standard map. But it's up to Thunder now, what kind of map he'd decide to make :). Maybe he will find a good solution for problems you wrote.
Relying only on stone trading is useless, but maybe it's good as a small boost...?
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thunder

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Post 16 Mar 2014, 21:07

Re: Timing ironproduction

@Nissarin: This idea probably won't work on a standard map. But it's up to Thunder now, what kind of map he'd decide to make :). Maybe he will find a good solution for problems you wrote.
Relying only on stone trading is useless, but maybe it's good as a small boost...?
I'm just finihing Annie at first, maybe after I will start another map. I have a sketch in my head about that new map and the plan has 4v4 and every side will have maybe 4 different locations/i mean on different in playing style.example:leather only, market loc(empty ironmountain-so with trading something to ironore can work), blocked ironhill(-s),small or maybe large infinity power loc.../ Maybe that map will have some random AI forces with little groups(with scriptS?) and some loc will have winefields.
So that map plan is still a little bit caotic, but when i will start to work on it after it will be clear. Of course some test will be necesarry before that huge project.

So im very courious on these things, what do you mean the players and the community about these little ideas.
And of course thanks!

t
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Nissarin

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Post 16 Mar 2014, 22:05

Re: Timing ironproduction

@Ben: Not really. In this situation, even if these 3 quarries are fulll (18 stone), I noticed only 10 serfs out of 30 idle delivering stone to market when I started trading. I also noticed, that trading isn't that high in priority, so it doesn't damage economy that much. And that 300 stone mountain was just an example.
I kinda forgot to mention it before but you are also forgetting a little detail - you need stone to make roads and buildings, so how many quarries do you want to build in total to make it worthwhile ?
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Tiank

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Post 17 Mar 2014, 14:59

Re: Timing ironproduction

@Nissarin: I thought we ended this discussion, but to answer your question - probably additional 2 quarries would be enough (so 6-7 in total). But the main goal is not to benefit from trading stone, but to get rid of stone mountain. Amount of quarries depends on mountain capacity as well.

But all predictions or suggestions are pointless now, since there is no map like that at the moment.
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