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Changing building priority order for laborers

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Munfred

Post 01 Feb 2014, 02:30

Changing building priority order for laborers

Hello

something that bugs me quite a bit on KaM, and which I believe would be rather simple to fix, is the priority Laborers give to buildings. If you have one laborer and there's something that's is still on "project" (like a road, field or building) and there's a building with materials delivered, he will always go first to the thing that is still in "project", and only then he will "hammer" the buildings into completion. That annoys me tremendously, and radically changes game development. Because, you see, we must be always being careful not to lay too many things on "project" at once because then it would take forever to build, and everything would get done almost at the same time (since "hammering" is much faster compared to waiting for stones on paths), and it would be a waste, because some building could have already been completed and productive long before. This would also reduce somewhat the number of builders you need, because I often make 20+ so that even if they all get busy with "projects", some will soon be free to "hammer" buildings that get their materials delivered.

I think it would be a big improvement to change Laborers priority, putting "hammering" ahead of "projects", buildings would get ready faster, and you'd be actually optimizing your production. Also, you'd be able to lay your city layout (roads) without worrying that if you do too much of it at once, your economy will halt.

So what do you think? Have I made myself clear?
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Ben

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 03:43

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

Nononono, this would be very bad! Think about it again: for now you can micro the amount of laborers constructing buildings by placing/removing road blueprints. If too few laborers are making buildings, then you remove some road prints. If they automatically went to construct buildings, you'd have no control anymore, because you can;t just destroy a building under construction (what a waste that would be!)
Last edited by Ben on 13 Sep 2021, 14:08, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: added the 't to "can't" (aka fixed a typo)
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Jeronimo

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 05:38

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

Ben is right... actually the whole "labourer micro" concept is about placing/removing roads as soon as you see a blueprint has already materials to be built.
And added to that comes the "school micro", where the trained citizen walks out of school and goes to his just built house... with perfect timing. :D
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Krom

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 06:27

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

@Ben: I'm not sure I understand your reasoning quite right. This part "... you'd have no control anymore, because you can just destroy a building under construction (what a waste that would be!)"
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Munfred

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 08:24

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

I made an account to the forums now! I'm sorry I made the last post as "guest".

Well, it's this kind of "micro management" that I'm precisely trying to avoid. Currently, you must lay your city one piece at a time, not too much at once or the buildings will never get ready. So you have to lay a piece, wait for the building to get "hammered", then lay another bit... and this is inefficient, because between laying once bit and laying another, you may get distracted or take too long, and your workers will be idle.

I have a proposal: why not make the priority choosable? Like with woodcutters? We may prioritize "hammering" over "projects" or the other way round. I cannot conceive any reason this would go against the spirit of KaM, and would certainly make my game-play, and many others, much easier.
Last edited by Munfred on 13 Sep 2021, 14:08, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Merged guest post
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Tiank

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 08:44

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

Current way of building is exactly in KaM spirit! It makes player to plan efficently, step by step. You have to be focused, to properly manage your builders, so that they're not idle. Make few labourers dig roads, while others are hammering buildings. If you are not careful, it's your loss. If you begin too many projects, you can't get anything done (just like in real life :)). It's great, that we have this kind of control over labourers. I don't think it should be changed, making it choosable would make things even more complicated in my opinion (and I think it'd be hard to implement).

@Krom: I think Ben meant, that you "must" destroy building under construction (instead of "can") in order to force labourers to make something else, which is a waste (of materials and time).
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Ben

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 08:51

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

@Ben: I'm not sure I understand your reasoning quite right. This part "... you'd have no control anymore, because you can just destroy a building under construction (what a waste that would be!)"
I meant to say "can't." Also, I made a quick video on this. Hopefully that explains it well ;)

http://youtu.be/iavJTmyHaL4
Well, it's this kind of "micro management" that I'm precisely trying to avoid. Currently, you must lay your city one piece at a time, not too much at once or the buildings will never get ready. So you have to lay a piece, wait for the building to get "hammered", then lay another bit... and this is inefficient, because between laying once bit and laying another, you may get distracted or take too long, and your workers will be idle.
Your method would be much less efficient.
I have a proposal: why not make the priority choosable? Like with woodcutters? We may prioritize "hammering" over "projects" or the other way round. I cannot conceive any reason this would go against the spirit of KaM, and would certainly make my game-play, and many others, much easier.
Krom and Lewin frequently remind the community about how it is their commitment to keep KaM's system of "indirect control" over the economy, as well as avoiding over-complexity. That you cannot see soldiers health is an example of such simplification.
Being able to chose the priority is not needed. The game will not benefit from it, as the current priority system works just fine. You just need a little skill to grasp it. It is the little things like this that make building enjoyable and challenging. New players just understand this, which is why they just make 10 building blueprints and sit back and watch everything get done; having no skill or technique put into their actual building.
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Krom

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 10:16

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

Good video, thanks Ben! However there's a catch if you have more builders - houses can use upto certain amount of workers to be built (6 for quarry?), so if you have more workers you can build roads and houses at once. Another idea we could add "stop construction" button into wip house menu?
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pawel95

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 11:14

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

Don´t agree about adding sth like that. Exactly like you wrote, Topicstarter, you have to micro them much. However exactly that is how it worked in KaM. That´s why it is kam and not the settlers. The only thing, I think that should be changed(Lewin already said that it will be changed back), that when you build a schoolhouse, the serfs don´t bring random recources to it, but instead FIRST all wood and after that all stone. That worked already a long time ago with a rc, but it was changed back then. WIth that at least we could avoid that your labours are leaving an unfinished hosue, because of lacking wood.
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thunder

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 12:03

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

Ben has truth!

I like this system because if i see all resources are at the building i can send there 3-4 builders or only 1 to build up. This system(priority on the roads,fields) is more effective in time than the other where the priority is on the buildings. Easier to building paralell mode buildings on this way and roads, more manageable than this idea.
This basic rule changes could bring a total different building style or gameplay...


/Personaly i don't want to try out the other version.(where the building has priority)/
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Munfred

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 15:47

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

Well, I now understand how this might remove the micro-management and go against the KaM philosophy, however I'm not convinced that the current system is more efficient. Currently what we must do is lay roads/buildings and wait for the buildings to complete (or at least till we have some Laborers free) to lay another round of roads/buildings, and this waiting step can introduce crucial inefficiency if we're not carefully attending to the Laborers all the time. Even if this feature is not to be implemented, I still would like to see a "race" between two teams, one with building > projects priority and another with the usual projects > building priority
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dicsoupcan

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 15:52

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

Good video, thanks Ben! However there's a catch if you have more builders - houses can use upto certain amount of workers to be built (6 for quarry?), so if you have more workers you can build roads and houses at once. Another idea we could add "stop construction" button into wip house menu?
Hmmz his still means the builder micro get's heldback a bit. Allow me to give an example:

Back in the desert, apretty loved map by players. The woodcutter and stonemason are already unlocked in this map. Sowhat do i want to do? i build my shcool + roads to it and a woodcutter + roads to it(untill the school can be build). The school will be build and the serfs deliver materials for the woodcutter already. However i want more builders/serfs firstand i need stonemasons.

What do i do?

i place roads and stonemasons blueprints untill i have 1 idle builder, so only 1 builder goes to make the cutter. the restof the builders are either making roads towards the stonemason or preparing roads for another woodcutter and sawmill. This is obviously not going to work if buildings get the priority, either all of them (till the max) go and build or no one will build.

I dug op my old town efficieny tutorial, you see me do the same thing, only a few builders (not all of them) make stonemasons and the rest prepares everything for the next building.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Ltu2bxycg

The old way ight be a little bit more work, but youhave much more control in what you want to do and as for city planning it is more efficient once you know the game mechanics.
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Munfred

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 16:24

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

Good video, thanks Ben! However there's a catch if you have more builders - houses can use upto certain amount of workers to be built (6 for quarry?), so if you have more workers you can build roads and houses at once. Another idea we could add "stop construction" button into wip house menu?
Hmmz his still means the builder micro get's heldback a bit. Allow me to give an example:

Back in the desert, apretty loved map by players. The woodcutter and stonemason are already unlocked in this map. Sowhat do i want to do? i build my shcool + roads to it and a woodcutter + roads to it(untill the school can be build). The school will be build and the serfs deliver materials for the woodcutter already. However i want more builders/serfs firstand i need stonemasons.

What do i do?

i place roads and stonemasons blueprints untill i have 1 idle builder, so only 1 builder goes to make the cutter. the restof the builders are either making roads towards the stonemason or preparing roads for another woodcutter and sawmill. This is obviously not going to work if buildings get the priority, either all of them (till the max) go and build or no one will build.

I dug op my old town efficieny tutorial, you see me do the same thing, only a few builders (not all of them) make stonemasons and the rest prepares everything for the next building.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Ltu2bxycg

The old way ight be a little bit more work, but youhave much more control in what you want to do and as for city planning it is more efficient once you know the game mechanics.
Yes I see what you mean. But then, the way to achieve "optimal" control over your building flux, is to be able to select for each builder what is his priority. Actually this would be great, because by having, say, 5 laborers set with building priority, I can proceed the gameplay as usual without having to worry that there will be buildings needing to be finished, those 5 laborers will always address buildings with materials, and if there are none then they'll go make roads/whatever.
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kocsis1david

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 21:57

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this is again has to do something with gamespeed. Placing/removing road blueprints probably doesn't work well with x2-x3.
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pawel95

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Post 01 Feb 2014, 22:17

Re: Changing building priority order for laborers

Hahaha Idd David, just what I wanted to write here about in a post from me :P
It looks like "inefficient" means for the threadstarter "too slow" building in KaM :P :P

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