Blocking units

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

Well you can still unblock them in the map editor yourself

You can't be serious.

[dicsoupcan]

Well you can still unblock them in the map editor yourself

You can't be serious.

i actually am

[The Dark Lord]

Cheats are out there to cheat. Maybe just invent a cheat that unblocks the whole 'tech tree'?

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

Well you can still unblock them in the map editor yourself

You can't be serious.

i actually am

I always thought the Remake was supposed to improve original KaM, not make it worse.

Please note that I'm replying to you, not talking about the idea in general.

[The Dark Lord]

I always thought the Remake was supposed to improve original KaM, not make it worse.

That's very dangerous to say; I mean, there are so many different ways in which the Remake is different from original KaM. We all have our own opinions about them. I for one like some of the changes (balance between soldiers) but also dislike some (marketplace). I would see this change as an improvement, while you obviously don't.

[dicsoupcan]

Well i did notice that and i do not see your problem. but maybe tdl his solution might fit the problem you adressed?

[Krom]

@Tom: Well spot. However early campaigns missions are mostly a tutorial to the game, so maybe cheating extensively in tutorial (hiring knights) indeed requires a little hassle (MapEd usage).

@All: Unblocking tech tree as cheat sounds a bit weird, because usually cheats are giving player an immediate effect. Do you think it is needed?

Example with bowmen and bows is a good one. Iirc TSK campaign you had a weapon workshop, but you did not had armory, so that problem was already there - you could make pikes but they were useless
Also the market - it allows to trade from/to bows.
Maybe we can add feature to block entire wares?

Sum up:
Blocking citizens sounds like a complete feature (mapmaker can block houses and citizens).
Blocking soldiers has some issues (we can block bowmen, but we cant block bow production, however that sounds like a potentially good idea).

[sado1]

By the way, if we want to block wares, wares in Market, soldiers/citizens and buildings, then I think it might make sense to make only one tab/menu for blocking stuff, so first you'd have to click on blocking icon, then you would choose one of the 4 tabs that will appear as submenus.

[pawel95]

Ok now i don't like the idea also... I thought you would implement this nice feature for fan maps. NOT the original tsk/tpr Misson. Then its a pretty bad idea in my opinion, just because the tsk/tpr campaign shouldn't be changed only becaus you can do that (cheating reasons, whatever) but its still a nice idea, to use that in fan made campaigns and maps.

I always thought the Remake was supposed to improve original KaM, not make it worse.

Well no comment. Thats clear...

It really looks that only me and tom is taking care about the ! Improving ! (Sp) kam and not making it worse like it was. No offence really, i like that you invest time, but changing the original missons then I dont get the point? Me and nearly everyone else learned how to play kam, with the tsk campaign. Did someone made a butchet in tsk 1? Who cares. Then he will learn that he doesn't need him for the forester...just like we learned it.
Same for troops. You cant make knights jn tsk1. Great. The recourses iron armory, shield, sword, horse and recruit are highlighted in the barracks gui, so why to block them? New players will be even more confused why its blocked. Thats why i said it could be a nice idea in fan made missons, when the player IS ABLE to make knights, but he shall not.

So me myself as the "keeper of originality of kam" is again unhappy about changing the original missons for no reason, just to go one more step away from THE Knights and Merchants, one step away from a remake. One step zo an other game..

Good job andreus with the code. But using it in non-fan made maps is a big mistake.

[Shadaoe]

Pawel, your whole long post can look strange just by thinking of a simple thing : aren't you the one who changed some campaign maps ?
I believe you are, and still you don't believe "it changed the map and made the remake worse" :/

I don't understand how it changes the maps to just block units that you can't do without cheating anyway. Just add a cheat to add any unit and here we go.

It's pretty hard for me to understand how it isn't an improvement, can you enlighten me ?

[Krom]

Okay, lets split it, everyone agrees that unit blocking is a good idea. Holy war starts about wherever should this feature be applied to original campaigns or not.

@Pawel: Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but do other games allow player to make all units/buildings in first half of missions in campaigns? While there are special tutorials in some games (KaM, TTD, EVE Online, some others ?), they are aimed at teaching the player how to control the game with huge amounts of helpers and guidance. I stick with opinion that campaigns for the first half are meant to introduce player to the game and teach him how to play it as well (over 9000 examples, just look at any RTS game). Part of the teaching process is restricting player from making mistakes (like training metallurgists or making bows when there's no armors). How is that making a game worse?

[pawel95]

First of all its making the game worst, because a player learns best by doing mistakes, that he won't do again. Just watch at these guys making a school without a road.They will never again miss to make a road... its in that way making the game worse because the player in kam has the special freedom, after that change he hasn't. Like you said the idea is great. The remake improves and implements new features, so mapmakers have a biiiiig freedom with dynamic scripts in general, but there is just total no need to change the "nice" kam campaigns. Like just for what? Have so players a problem that they can train 100 metallurgists in tsk1 or what?
Like i said before in the speed topic. Improving and implementing new features that maks the game easier/better is different, to just change some general gameplay feature. I mean its special and typical for kam thaz you have a school where you can train everything. Not many players have this feature. So why to change a kam-typical detail?

[andreus]

Good job andreus with the code. But using it in non-fan made maps is a big mistake.

ok, then let's use it for fan-made maps only

[Krom]

First of all its making the game worst, because a player learns best by doing mistakes, that he won't do again. Just watch at these guys making a school without a road.They will never again miss to make a road... its in that way making the game worse because the player in kam has the special freedom, after that change he hasn't. Like you said the idea is great. The remake improves and implements new features, so mapmakers have a biiiiig freedom with dynamic scripts in general, but there is just total no need to change the "nice" kam campaigns. Like just for what? Have so players a problem that they can train 100 metallurgists in tsk1 or what?
Like i said before in the speed topic. Improving and implementing new features that maks the game easier/better is different, to just change some general gameplay feature. I mean its special and typical for kam thaz you have a school where you can train everything. Not many players have this feature. So why to change a kam-typical detail?

Starting argumentation with "First of all its making the game worst" is not the best idea

If player learns best by making mistakes, then why most of the games don't employ that strategy? (with except for Dwarf Fortress perhaps)
On the contrary - players find it frustrating to learn through mistakes and are likely to throw the game out.

There's a difference between freedom and pointless mistakes.
Freedom means you have a big environment, a set of loose conditions and pletora of resources and meaningful actions. How is training 100 metallurgists in TSK1 is a meaningful freedom ... ?
Isn't it just the same as if you could build gold mines in TSK1 without any gold mountains perhaps

[pawel95]

Yeah goldnine in tsk1. You press at the goldmine button and try to build it somewhere. Not possible. So no problem when it wouldn't be blocked. The player gets it. In tsk4 the player learns normaly that they can build a goldmine normaly, because he has no gold and a goldmine appears Xd so in my opinion like you said tsk is like a tutorial, but working nice like now, that would even open new ways of confusion.

Btw shad, I didn't liked to change them even. I wanted to help krom and Lewin. The remake "changed" the ai for example in comparison to tpr, so with my fixed tpr maps, i tried to rebalance it, for example i gave an ai the yellow color back, when he had a wrong one in the remake. Or added bowmen for not working catapults, that is sth different, because i just tried to rebalance stuff, so it works nearly same as in tpr