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[BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

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Nissarin

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Post 29 Sep 2013, 18:16

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

@sado
How are you going to "handle" training workers, serfs, etc. ?
What about trees - some might get in your way (while making town) and more importantly having 10 wood cutters won't help if there are no tress to cut. Similar situation with fields and wine.
What about map vision (what prevents you from trolling other players ?) ?
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sado1

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Post 29 Sep 2013, 19:53

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

@sado
How are you going to "handle" training workers, serfs, etc. ?
What about trees - some might get in your way (while making town) and more importantly having 10 wood cutters won't help if there are no tress to cut. Similar situation with fields and wine.
What about map vision (what prevents you from trolling other players ?) ?
You will get some fixed amount of serfs and builders at start of the game. Maybe it'd be good to have an opportunity to cut down up to 5 trees, or just do the winefarm trick (it costs you resources so it's fine I guess). Map vision... well, that's a tough one :(
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pawel95

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Post 29 Sep 2013, 20:40

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

The "speedup" feature was requested by a lot of players, at that time no one was against it. Besides that it's just an option, some players want to play 3x and suck at it, while other enjoy vanilla 1x, deal with it.
Lots of players. 100% new players that never played the original game. Like 5% players who played tpr/tsk before. Show me like 2 people on facebook/forum whatever, that said they want to have a speedslider,that acutaly played the original game?!
players want to play 3x and suck at it, while other enjoy vanilla 1x, deal with it.
Why they don´t deal with it that it was x1,0 speed originaly? Deal with it! Deal with it!

There are maps where towers are disabled (for some locations or in general), so your "fantasy" is already implemented,
Are you trolling me? On L O S T the storehouse is empty. Does that mean that works on every map/ most maps? Omg
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WhiteWolf

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Post 29 Sep 2013, 21:14

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

The "speedup" feature was requested by a lot of players, at that time no one was against it. Besides that it's just an option, some players want to play 3x and suck at it, while other enjoy vanilla 1x, deal with it.
Lots of players. 100% new players that never played the original game. Like 5% players who played tpr/tsk before. Show me like 2 people on facebook/forum whatever, that said they want to have a speedslider,that acutaly played the original game?!
yeah I did ;) I asked for a speed up and i've played the original games a lot.. however tpr a little less cuz of some bugs in the missions~
There is no such thing as innocence only degrees of guilt.
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pawel95

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Post 29 Sep 2013, 21:16

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

Great wanna a cookie? Shall I bring it to you?
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Nissarin

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Post 29 Sep 2013, 21:18

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

You will get some fixed amount of serfs and builders at start of the game. Maybe it'd be good to have an opportunity to cut down up to 5 trees, or just do the winefarm trick (it costs you resources so it's fine I guess). Map vision... well, that's a tough one :(
Fixed amount... what amount exactly ? 70 ? 80 ? 90 ? BTW: while there is some random factor in starting condition, your people will get hungry around the same time, if you happen to have only one inn this won't be pretty.
And what about workers - I don't mean just serfs and labourers but also wood cutters, carpenters, etc., do you want to train them ? (seams fun..)
About the trees, again some fixed amount might not work (it's map/location dependant), and if you want it look like "editor" then you can't have labourers running around. And while we are at it, sometimes you might want to level the terrain with roads in order to make building there, how's that going to work ?
And you missed the entire point about actually having renewable resources like trees and corn. If you just leave it as is then you'll have to watch your town idling around for several minutes while wood cutters plant trees and farmers plant the seeds. I can see players making leather units...
Lots of players. 100% new players that never played the original game. Like 5% players who played tpr/tsk before. Show me like 2 people on facebook/forum whatever, that said they want to have a speedslider,that acutaly played the original game?!
100% new players who never played the game requested speed up feature, did I get that right ?
I'm not going to bother searching for people who played in the original because first of all - it doesn't matter and second - only fraction of KaM players are registered/active on this forum/facebook (I don't even have account on FB). I did however heard many players wanting this feature while chatting in game (previous version), I also believe you're one of the beta testers, which mean you had the opportunity to say to the devs: "it's too fast" (or any other beta tester for that matter), so ?
Why they don´t deal with it that it was x1,0 speed originaly? Deal with it! Deal with it!
I really don't like to repeat myself - speed up was implemented in the original game, just because it was not present in multiplayer doesn't mean it was intended that way, more likely the developers didn't bother to do it. One of the reasons behind the Remake was to improve multiplayer in the first place. Also, just because it's "Remake" of the original game doesn't mean that we shouldn't modify/improve original game, there are balance changes in the every release, there are "new" buildings like market, some building are not present (town hall, work shop). If you find original gameplay sacred - go play original game.
Are you trolling me? On L O S T the storehouse is empty. Does that mean that works on every map/ most maps? Omg
You are throwing around cheap arguments like "that's fantasy" and asking me if am I trolling you ?

PS:
Yes, I played in the original (TPR/TSK), yes I wanted speed up feature. That's two people, now gtfo.
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pawel95

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Post 29 Sep 2013, 21:26

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

Omg seriously are you a troller without a nomal life o what?
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Shadaoe

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Post 29 Sep 2013, 22:28

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

Please don't pollute aother topic with insults and nonsense, you'd rather try to have constructive feedback on sado's idea which seem pretty nice.
And you missed the entire point about actually having renewable resources like trees and corn. If you just leave it as is then you'll have to watch your town idling around for several minutes while wood cutters plant trees and farmers plant the seeds. I can see players making leather units...
AFAIK it is planned to be able to add objects by dynamic script. Which would actually make it doable to have pre-grown corn/adding trees. I don't think sado missed any point here.

Insulting others, saying "gtfo" etc.. doesn't help anyone.
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Nissarin

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Post 29 Sep 2013, 23:29

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

@Shadaoe
No, sado did miss that point but then if it will be possible to add trees/corn then this would be doable, however, what about other issues ("it will be fine" it's not enough) ?
BTW, you should not take 'gtfo' in that context too seriously.
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sado1

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Post 30 Sep 2013, 04:09

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

"It will be fine" is enough. Because I'm quite sure it's doable. Also, each map has a few starting trees, so it's not impossible to start cutting them immediately (although it might be not enough).

Also, 1000000000x what Shadaoe said. Could a moderator help a little bit here please? :p
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Shadaoe

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Post 30 Sep 2013, 05:21

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

@Shadaoe
No, sado did miss that point but then if it will be possible to add trees/corn then this would be doable
No he didn't because sado is actually aware of the future additions to dynamic scripting (objects), while you obviously aren't (which isn't wrong at all, except that once you're explained these said additions, can you stop saying "he missed the point", admit you're wrong, and move on ?)
Please don't be in a "everyone else is wrong" mind, let's just discuss. Yes sometimes in a debate one can admit he's wrong, otherwise it goes into a vicious circle.

To add life to the city while pre-grown corn is cut you could even add one or two resources to other buildings so they start right away while the serfs launch the unstoppable ware machine, but that's optional as it wouldn't add that much.

About other points :
your people will get hungry around the same time, if you happen to have only one inn this won't be pretty.
The solution is simple, build more than one inn, or randomize the hunger of villagers in the script. Building more than one inn in a gamemode where you start with a heavy number of citizens is common sense (like not running out of stone before building quarries, sometimes it happens but usualy you're aware of it).
Once the players are used to it this isn't that much of a problem in my opinion, just a matter of time to get used to it.
About the amount of serf/laborers, either you add a fixed amount based on the maximum buildings you can do during the allowed time, or you magically add serfs and laborers every x buildings with dynamic scripting which in the end, is pretty much the same except the second one seems more natural. An optimal amount of serf/building can be calculated and if the player wants more then, he has schools.
And what about workers - I don't mean just serfs and labourers but also wood cutters, carpenters, etc., do you want to train them ? (seams fun..)
Dynamic script magic (like finishing buildings in a blink, which is the base of this idea), you add the woodcutter at the same time you build his hut and the player doesn't have to train the workers, which is much funnier indeed, and easy to fix ;)
what about other issues ("it will be fine" it's not enough) ?
Most of your other points are only focused on game speed slider, which is not the topic.

I believe "it will be fine" indeed (although I never said that before.), because it's a 'fast mode' which keeps the spirit of KaM (after this prebuild phase), and dynamic scripts are expanding in a way that'll allow it to be fully done (and it can be extensively started already).
I think this fast building phase would be really great if you don't have enough time to play a full KaM game, because the rest of the game can still be at *1 speed (allowing fights to be understandable) and you'll lose less time.
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T*AnTi-V!RuZz

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Post 30 Sep 2013, 06:57

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

Can we please keep this a normal and especially civilized discussion, people?

If you can't handle a discussion stay away from this topic. I haven't and will not mod any posts made thus far, but terms as "gtfo" are definitely NOT appreciated.
That being said, pawel did act as a 12-year-old, so he kind of got it coming to him. That doesn't mean I approve it, make no mistake.

Now, if anyone has a problem with this contact me or another crew member through PM. All posts after mine will be normal and on-topic or they will be deleted instantly.
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Nissarin

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Post 30 Sep 2013, 18:34

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

@Shadaoe
I gave up on reading/responding to every single post long time ago but even if he was aware of changes and I obviously wasn't I can't possible know what he was thinking.
When I asked about about other issues I actually meant issues about this proposal, which you gave answer to.

Now back to the actual topic. Assuming that we can handle spawning objects with scripting then we don't actually need new game mode. It could be implemented as "special map" by taking a few popular ones and dropping in such a mod. This way devs won't have to invest any time implementing it and we can check whenever players actually like it or not before going forward (adding such option to game lobby).

The way I see it now (I mean the actual implementation), this could work like this:
- you start with storehouse full of raw materials (stone, wood, gold ?)
- no serfs/labourers
- you have few minutes to make "plans" of the city, make roads/fields (resources will be subtracted from store, or added if you cancel the plan)
- each "plan" will clear surrounding area of trees and give limited visibility and possibly level the terrain
- after the time is up, "plans" are converted to actual buildings/roads/fields and workers get spawned, along with random number of trees surrounding wood cutters with various stages of growth, the same goes for corn/wine fields
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WollongongWolf

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Post 30 Sep 2013, 22:15

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

Tbh I'm not liking the idea very much, mainly because you are still "skipping" the building part (the actual building, caring about the order: no wood/stone/gold shortage). Sure it may be fine, but in my opinion it doesn't really fit all points in the first post.

So than I need to have a "counter-idea" as well (just saying "no" is something I can't do :P). I prefer just quicker growth/production rates, say everything goes twice as fast (corn grows twice a fast, trees grow twice as fast, making an axe goes twice as fast, etc. (getting hungry goes twice as fast? Buildings got half HP?)), so you can have a leather army up quickly.
Next start with a school (only the school, because that one is basically always next to the storehouse (I also dislike prebuild maps like land of hills/bridge disaster ;))) and some more serfs and laborers to get going more quickly. (This might only safe like 5 minutes, but every small bit helps).
And (for now) last (and most disturbing probably): disable towers/add siege workshop. Yes this ruins defence, but in order to get a fast game, defence must be weakened (good defence = longer games), (is it balanced? yes: both teams can make them. Perhaps make these kind off superweapons (like nuclear bombs in WWII), or enable building a siege workshop at say 30-40 minutes (mind that it still needs to be build, so the first catapult can be ready at 45 minutes, move it and the game may be finished at 60, goal achieved!). Yes random troops can sneak in, but isn't that good for speeding up the game? (long comparison: in a shop, there a 2 rows for the counter, 1 long one with a hot girl behind the counter, and 1 very short with an ugly girl, you want to get home fast, but also be in the line of the hot girl, how to solve it? (good luck!))
(Ok one more last: disable Cursed Ravine :P)

just my 2pence
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Guest

Post 04 Dec 2013, 01:40

Re: [BRAINSTORM] Faster gamemode

It's beginning to bother me just a little bit by now that people want to rush a game like KaM. Just accept that this is a very, very slow game to play. My opinion is that if you don't have the time to play a ''normal'' KaM game online please play one of the other +1.000.000 games out there.
+1

I find it even bothering that there is the possibility to play 3x games. Why? It doesn't even make sense. And it gets harder from day to day to find people for a good old fashioned 1x game (or 1.5x). This game has become effectivly double the speed it used to be and went away from the idea of not being on more game where the person wins who can do more clicks per minute or is better in "automating" strategies but old fashioned strategizing and planning on a bigger scale than "i have to be as fast as possible with my mouse and my screen".

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