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Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

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Ben

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Prince Lothar

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Post 12 Feb 2018, 17:27

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Krom wrote:Changing woodcutters behavior to plant trees as close as possible to a cutting point is changing the game further that it should IMO (for a Remake, at least). KaM is based on random numbers a lot (all fighting, all mining). Changing mining to be "efficient" will make the game look more "artificial", which is not inline with "good old KaM" feeling. On a game-design thought - that makes foresting a lot simpler and less taxing, which it should be (to be different enough from farming)


I agree mostly. Though I'm not a huge fan of the KaM features that are designed to be deliberately inefficient, having this much micro just isn't at the level at which KaM was designed to be played. The simulation of building a town in KaM is supposed to be more "hands-off" than in other city builders. To have such detailed micro on woodcutter planting but no direct control for farmers, miners, laborers, and serfs seems strange. Now, we could enable the player to override all this AI, and issue commands directly when desirable. This would make towns crazy efficient, but it would certainly impact the game dramatically in more than just build time. It would make KaM even less of an RTS than it is now, and move it closer yet to a city builder.

That's a question that we need to ask ourselves as we further the course of this Remake: What is it that what we want Knights and Merchants to be?
#thunderposting #greentornado
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Toxic

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Post 19 Feb 2018, 15:47

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Thank you for your feedback.

Krom wrote:...KaM is based on random numbers a lot (all fighting, all mining). ...

This really have a huge impact - for example AI can build city VERY fast when you catch every tick what each worker do and set new orders ... but because of random delays between tasks I am unable to do it.
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Krom

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Post 20 Feb 2018, 18:14

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

"for example AI can build city VERY fast when you catch every tick what each worker do and set new orders"

AI should not be like this. It must have essentially what player has at it's command.
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Ben

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Post 20 Feb 2018, 19:40

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Krom wrote:"for example AI can build city VERY fast when you catch every tick what each worker do and set new orders"

AI should not be like this. It must have essentially what player has at it's command.

I don’t really agree with you Krom (quite rare! ;)). AI will never be as good as a human: not creative, predictable, do stupid stuff, play mind games, etc. To make up for this, and AI should use its best talent: multi tasking. The AI sees all, and should micro to that potential (which can easily be reduced for making difficulty levels)
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Krom

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Post 21 Feb 2018, 05:19

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

@Ben: I believe we are talking about different things.

What I mean is, that AI should not be able to play a different kind of game and control each and every units action each tick (that is making AI play direct-control RTS game and player playing indirect KaM as we know it). Noone would like to play KaM where opponent is not restricted by groups getting stuck in a fight (cos AI manages all warriors in groups of 1, individually).

Example from Starcraft 2: https://youtu.be/IKVFZ28ybQs?t=35 - can we imagine how human player would feel about this cheating bastard? :-)

Same goes for city-building. If player can not control individual serfs/builders - so should not AI.
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
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Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
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Ben

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Post 21 Feb 2018, 14:39

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Oh I see! That makes sense then, Krom. Indeed, the AI should use the same serf logic as human players. They also shouldn’t be controlling each soldier individually (the horror!)
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Toxic

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Post 21 Feb 2018, 16:09

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Krom wrote:...Example from Starcraft 2: https://youtu.be/IKVFZ28ybQs?t=35 - can we imagine how human player would feel about this cheating bastard? :-)

(6) (6) (6) it is nice that you mention this because combat AI in KaM is also better when it has in group just 1 soldier (better selection of target, no unnecessarily blocked troops during combat but also negative performance impact).

However, this is not problem of the AI that the game is designed in a way, where is more effecient to manage units separately than in groups. If is the task to produce badass AI, then it is the right way. Otherwise, you are basically saying to the AI that this task is done well but you dont want this solution so every attempt to make reasonable requirements will fail (or I am not able to imagine how you want to tune it to be better than first method). Therefore should developers first balance the game - if you have an opinion, that there should be larger group, you can add bonuses for it (morale, experiences, better defece, cheaper maintenance).

KaM is of course old game and there was not intended to make such crazy things.

Krom wrote:Same goes for city-building. If player can not control individual serfs/builders - so should not AI.

This one is matter of interpretation. Good players at speed 1x also place roads by 1 tile because they see, that some workers are bringing stones. Here I wanted to save performance - instead of checking every turn if is serv with stone nearby AI just try to catch specific state of constructing something (before the construction is finished). AI of course does not give orders directly to the worker.
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Ben

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Post 21 Feb 2018, 19:50

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Toxic wrote:
Krom wrote:Same goes for city-building. If player can not control individual serfs/builders - so should not AI.

This one is matter of interpretation. Good players at speed 1x also place roads by 1 tile because they see, that some workers are bringing stones. Here I wanted to save performance - instead of checking every turn if is serv with stone nearby AI just try to catch specific state of constructing something (before the construction is finished). AI of course does not give orders directly to the worker.

Theoretically, the human player could control laborers individually. It's pretty difficult to do so once the game gets busy, though. I don't think Krom is against the AI being able to "micro" its builders throughout the game. I think he is just against the AI telling the laborers to stop a task so they can perform a closer one. For example, stop walking over to build that woodcutter on the other side of the base. Build that mine right next to you instead. A human player can't do that, neither should AI.

As for controlling individual units, that is of course more powerful, but KaM combat is designed to be played with formations and groups. The AI should respect this pattern.
#thunderposting #greentornado
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thunder

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Post 22 Feb 2018, 09:00

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Theoretically, the human player could control laborers individually.

I'M pretty sure I would delete this function from the game. The labourers should not walk further from a village than 15-20tiles from the house at the edge of the village. I guess it is even could be added by dinamic script.
So disgusting to send citizens into death-really not fit into this game.
The unit dismiss button will be there then order unit to walk into schoool to die. Imagine no more legal scouting. Easier to make speciel multiplayer maps with uniqe locaion orders... :P
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Ben

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Prince Lothar

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Post 21 Sep 2018, 15:19

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Wow, no ideas posted for over seven months? This must be a record. We need to steal some of the focus from the Russian forum!

Here is my unorthodox idea: Could we (finally) officially change the name of axefighters -> axemen, swordfighter -> swordsmen and lance carrier -> lancemen? These clunky original names are obviously translation errors. For president, we already changed the name of iron armament -> iron armor, so it wouldn't be too crazy to do the name for these other anomalies. Please― as a native English speaker― these names bother me on a personal level. Let's update them!
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T*AnTi-V!RuZz

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Post 21 Sep 2018, 19:09

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Ben wrote:Wow, no ideas posted for over seven months? This must be a record. We need to steal some of the focus from the Russian forum!

Here is my unorthodox idea: Could we (finally) officially change the name of axefighters -> axemen, swordfighter -> swordsmen and lance carrier -> lancemen? These clunky original names are obviously translation errors. For president, we already changed the name of iron armament -> iron armor, so it wouldn't be too crazy to do the name for these other anomalies. Please― as a native U.S. English speaker― these names bother me on a personal level. Let's update them!

Fixed. :mrgreen:
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Hokum_52

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Post 23 Sep 2018, 11:04

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

It may have been said a long time ago already, but I support the idea that the only advantage the AI has over the player would be its ability to "see" everything at the same time ; no other bonuses, or maybe in a special "hardcore" setting for people who want to play against a really challenging AI.
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thunder

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Knight

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Post 29 Sep 2018, 11:13

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Hi,
The r6720 released almost 4 years ago(Dec 2014). Strange, true? :D Under this year lots of new maps be created and lots of outdated or not played anymore. Lots of new players came and lots of left. With this alternation many maps be forgotten or stood unknown. Good example the map called Boarder Battlefield which was always a well playable good map and was available only on forum. Many players lost old maps when bought a new PC, reinstalled the game and etc...
In the past adding /removing maps from the game happened manually and with discussion on the forum. The game changed lot, enough if think on the dynamic scritps mode...

Could you add a kind of online service to the game? I mean kind of option to download SP, MP maps from a server where most of them are available.
It would be as like the KaM Repos in the forum, but built in the game. Or the lobbies could list the avaiable maps in KaMRepos and or download directly from KaM Repos. KaM Repos maps could be reported by users or the forum users etc. What is guarantee the KaM Repos offers only dedicated maps.

If somebody wants to install remake and collecting older not very popular maps, then that player's going to face a kind of challange.
Bests,
t
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thunder

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Knight

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Post 06 Oct 2018, 10:51

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

Hi,
Is there a graph with all trades happened in the market?
As I see the market starts to be a popular building again. :wink:
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The Dark Lord

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Post 04 Nov 2018, 20:57

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

All you need the market for is shown in my profile picture. Good day!
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