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Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

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dicsoupcan

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Post 10 Sep 2013, 17:10

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

i you really are going to look upon unit performance only you should totally not take anything in accuont except unit stats, which mean that swordfighters should be in equal numbres and thus they prove to be superior to pikemen in melee combat. but to only use the variables you want is biased research, either you take all variables into acount like costs, army composition, tactics, flanking etc or none of them at all. That is like only looking at people who did not die of a condition and not look to the people who did die at the same condition and say this condition this will not kill you.

But i am not going to try to convince you anymore, it really has no use.
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Esthlos

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Post 10 Sep 2013, 17:30

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

Ok, modified the cells to be narrower (10-tiles-large passages).
This seems to have changed things a bit (this time, 8 battles per "configuration"):
51 Pikemen vs 34 Sword Fighters (102 iron per side): Pikemen won 2 times, Sword Fighters won 6 times;
50 Pikemen vs 30 Sword Fighters and 5 Crossbowmen (100 iron per side): Pikemen won 1 times, Sword Fighters won 7 times;
50 Pikemen vs 20 Sword Fighters and 20 Crossbowmen (100 iron per side): Pikemen won 4 times, Sword Fighters won 4 times;
50 Pikemen vs 10 Sword Fighters and 35 Crossbowmen (100 iron per side): Pikemen won 7 times, Sword Fighters won 1 time.
i you really are going to look upon unit performance only you should totally not take anything in accuont except unit stats,
When did I write I was going to compare just the single unit's performance? Image

The first thing I wrote is that I prefer Pikemen because they're cheaper!
But i am not going to try to convince you anymore, it really has no use.
Bye.
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Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Ben

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Post 10 Sep 2013, 17:34

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

i you really are going to look upon unit performance only you should totally not take anything in accuont except unit stats,
When did I write I was going to compare just the single unit's performance? Image
I believe that Disco is referring to you disagreeing with my "Pikemen are inferior."

Further, Your tests of using xbows with swords is quite irrelevant, since bowmen are used with swordfighters, not crossbowmen.
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dicsoupcan

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Post 10 Sep 2013, 17:36

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

i you really are going to look upon unit performance only you should totally not take anything in accuont except unit stats,
When did I write I was going to compare just the single unit's performance? Image
I believe that Disco is referring to you disagreeing with my "Pikemen are inferior."

Further, Your tests of using xbows with swords is quite irrelevant, since bowmen are used with swordfighters, not crossbowmen.
Someone who get's the point, thank you.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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Esthlos

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Post 10 Sep 2013, 18:21

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

When did I write I was going to compare just the single unit's performance? Image
I believe that Disco is referring to you disagreeing with my "Pikemen are inferior."

Further, Your tests of using xbows with swords is quite irrelevant, since bowmen are used with swordfighters, not crossbowmen.
Someone who get's the point, thank you.
End write's beter then you, too (6) :mrgreen: :P
Further, Your tests of using xbows with swords is quite irrelevant, since bowmen are used with swordfighters, not crossbowmen.
Oook, will change the tests to include Wood troops.
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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dicsoupcan

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Post 10 Sep 2013, 20:02

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

There is seriously no need to provoke a fight here, you failed to get my point while ben understood it quite well. Just admit your mistake and be mature about it.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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skeletor

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Post 30 Apr 2015, 12:26

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

ive also tried some stuff with pikes vs swd trick is if u want pikes to win all u have to do is make the line longer
for eample 60 pikes vs 40 swd (same iron amount) both groups in 3 lines so u have 3*20 pikes and 3*15 i guess last line bit less and swords loose even with bows so point is longer line is better :D
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Esthlos

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Post 30 Apr 2015, 14:20

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

Oooh, this thread!

More than a year passed, and since in that while I learned how to use dynamic scripts, my tests have become way more significative and easier to do. :P

So, let's see:
Army 1:
  • 40 Sword Fighters (front)
    73 Bowmen (back)
Army 2:
  • 54 Pikemen (front)
    73 Bowmen (back)
Storming was disabled.

Army compositions were planned using the speculated warrior values; it is possible that they are not accurate enough when comparing Leather and Iron troops, but it doesn't matter here since we're comparing 2 Iron troops, which means that any imprecision applies to both sides and factors out in this particular case.

Also, please note that the Pikemen would have been 60, as in your post, if the number of Recruits needed was ignored.

Test 1, Bowmen are in a 24 columns formation, Pikemen in an 18 one, Sword Fighters in a 15 one.
Even though there are no cavalry units (which Pikemen counter effectively) and Bowmen are involved (which are countered by Sword Fighters but not by Pikemen, thanks to the Shield bonus), Army 2 won 280 out of 500 battles (56%).
Average duration: 88 seconds
Shortest fight: 59 seconds
Longest fight: 136 seconds

Test 2, both Sword Fighters and Pikemen are spawned in a 9 columns formation (Bowmen are the same as in test 1); please note that doing this means giving yet another advantage to Sword Fighters, since this way their superior stats matter more and their inferior number matters less.
Still, with this setup Army 2 won 253 out of 500 battles (51%).
Average duration: 98 seconds
Shortest fight: 76 seconds
Longest fight: 140 seconds

EDIT: Fixed an error
Last edited by Esthlos on 01 May 2015, 13:14, edited 1 time in total.
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Ben

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Post 30 Apr 2015, 15:21

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

These tests are mostly unpractical. They don't take the most important factor into play: Tactics; though I'm sure you're aware of it.
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skeletor

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Post 30 Apr 2015, 18:09

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

ESTHLOS: (H) (H) nice testing
Ben : no because then the player with better tactic would win and not neceseraly player with swords
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Ben

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Post 30 Apr 2015, 22:36

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

I didn't say the player with swords would win.

Anyway, nobody (well, no one good) has such large groups of units. And fights are seldom head on. Also, consider that there is lots of shooting before a fight (bowmen shooting and going back). There are so many tactics at play here that aren't considered.
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Esthlos

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Post 01 May 2015, 07:50

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

Anyway, nobody (well, no one good) has such large groups of units.
Using a high number of soldiers over a huge number of battles allows to reliably use the results to infer general features of the game, since it limits the impact of randomness.
Also, since the battles are head on between soldiers that are simply told to slaughter each other, there is no need to split the troops.
It may be done anyway, though... I'll post the results after altering the script so that it uses split troops.
And fights are seldom head on. Also, consider that there is lots of shooting before a fight (bowmen shooting and going back). There are so many tactics at play here that aren't considered.
True, there may be other advantages for Sword Fighters, that I haven't been able to standardize and automate over hundreds of battles.

But in these tests Sword Fighters have been given 3 clear advantages, and still didn't prove to be better than Pikemen... this is a strong proof against the notion of Sword Fighters being better than Pikemen.

It means that you need at least 4 advantages for them to start being more useful than Pikemen.
It means that Pikemen are generally stronger melee warriors, not that they are so universally superior that they outshine anything else in every situation.

Also, please note that not acknowledging this is much akin to claiming that Knights are worthless because you might face an army double your own, entirely made of Pikemen and a few CrossBowmen, while you have no ranged support... sure, you might.
But when you recognize that such an army is being made you can stop recruiting Knights and adapt earlier.

Likewise, if you recognize the presence of many of the factors that limit the power of Pikemen (lots of tight spaces, no enemy cavalry whatsoever, high numbers of Bowmen, etc...) you must consider changing you strategy accordingly and recruit someone else than Pikemen, or you'll deserve your defeat.
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Esthlos

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Post 01 May 2015, 14:15

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

Ok, added the option to have the test manage single units instead of the whole groups for front and back.

By the way, the battles are awesome to watch with these settings... the AI is extremely good at managing single warriors. :mrgreen:

Anyway, ran the tests again with split units...
Test 1:
Pikemen won 313 out of 500 battles (63%).
Sword Fighters won 187 out of 500 battles (37%).

Average duration: 79 seconds
Shortest fight: 50 seconds
Longest fight: 129 seconds

Test 2:
Pikemen won 176 out of 500 battles (35%).
Sword Fighters won 324 out of 500 battles (65%).

Average duration: 95 seconds
Shortest fight: 60 seconds
Longest fight: 139 seconds
Just when you think you know something, you have to look at it in another way, even though it may seem silly or wrong. You must try! - John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"
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Ben

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Post 01 May 2015, 14:17

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

Haha,this looks pretty funny. I imagine lots of soldiers running around like ants ^^
Do you have the "simulation" on a scripted map? If so, I'd like to watch it ;)
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The Dark Lord

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Post 01 May 2015, 15:16

Re: Swordfigters vs. Pikemen

I think that with such a large number of bowmen, the impact of the shield bonus is smaller. I wonder what the results would be with only 45-50 bowmen on each side.

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